Posted on 07/13/2002 2:49:41 PM PDT by fporretto
I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit. Ten years ago, I would consider myself, a conservative Christian Republican. Now I'm leaning to conservative Christian libertarian for several reasons. First off, the WOD. Now as a Christian I understand and know that the 'feel good do it' mentality is wrong. However I also understand that under the Constitution of these United States, there is no real defining of this power. Sure I've seen the arguments, but they're weak. Should the WOD continue? Not at the federal level. However, there should be laws on drugs passed and prosecuted at the state level.
The other issue is conservatism. At least here in NC, the Republican candidates the RNC backs are liberal to say the least. I'm constantly flamed for it, but take a look between Liddy Dole and Erskine Bowles. I can't find an issue that they truly differ on, except maybe by a few degrees. I will agree that the Libertarian Party in its truest form exists with few morals, however I have left the Republican Party and joined the Southern Party, an up and coming party that will in years to come hopefully cause a stir for us down here in 'occupied territory' (yes, I'm one of those)
I have to say that the Republicans have left me behind a long time ago on many issues. I am for a national defense, I do believe in fighting for the right cause but I also see this nation of states has become what the Founders left behind over 200 years ago with its citizens not much more than subjects to the centralized government in Washington DC. I do not believe or support a tariff to protect jobs for any reason. In the end it hurts the industry and for the short term causes higher prices. I am on the fence on immigration. I do believe in protection of borders, especially with the general government funding every social program under the sun. However if those social programs were limited to citizens instead of anyone that could get a driver's license as they are now, I'm not sure I have as much of a problem with immigration.
Abortion? Of course it is wrong, but heck look at the number of Republican candidates this year that either don't have an official stance or are open to 'limited' abortions. Same case with homosexuality. We are pandering to less than 2% of the population for fear of being labeled hateful. Yet more Republicans either condone this sickness outright or in private. The Democratic Party may differ on the fiscal side of the party lines but the Republican Party as a whole is moving to the left. I didn't move as much as the Party picked up the tent, moved it, and staked it in the middle of the road. I'm still over here on the far right but tended to be ostracized by many of my former party's members for my beliefs.
You say you make sure your Christian friends understand the Libertarian Party and its stance, I'd start questioning them about what the Republican Party seems to be doing, especially here in the South. Look at the RINOs lined up and ready to win. Sure Republicans may 'win back the Senate', Bush may even throw a judge out there to the cheers of the party faithful, but at what cost. What will they be doing 5, 10, or even 15 years from now. Look at Bush's latest agency invention. A SWAT team to fight corporate corruption? What? Were there not laws in place before for corruption whether it be lying to the stockholders, insider trading, or outright embezzlement? Is the general government's regulation of the stock market somehow going to help cure all our ills, turn the stock market around, and help the economy? Yet, so many Senators, Representatives, or anyone else in Washington possibly affected by a political vote is jumping on the bandwagon of corporate responsibility, the axle's going to break on the wagon!! And the guys yelling loudest are Republicans!! They're just in it for the vote, whichever of their constituents see the nightly news, see that their Congressman is fighting for them, and maybe get a vote out of it. Does it really matter if they have a D or an R beside their name anymore? From the past 6 months, I'm beginning to believe it doesn't.
LOL...I had to go and look at his home page to see if that is what it said, and sure enough there is was. If this is what our colleges are turning out as an excuse for a political science major, we are in bigger trouble than what I thought.
Please do not confuse libertarianism (limited government)
with anarchy (no government.).
I look at the requirement for teachers in the way of degrees and
wonder why. We sure don't pay them for the time spent at university.
Heck, even a city librarian opening requires a master's degree.
Then I consider that I could teach my profession to a class
better than any general teacher ever could, and I don't have a
degree at all.
That a political science graduate would be so ignorant, yet so
convinced of his mistaken views, makes me wonder why, in lieu
of a year of OJT, any job below research scientist requires
college education at all.
No conflict exists here unless you look to religion for morality. Religion has no place in politics. Secular ethics are the only answer for a modern civil society.
Libertarian, from what I have picked up on FR seems kind of anarchist to me.
We agree with anarchists less than most on the religious right agree with socialism (well actually there are strong similarities between the religious right and socialism so maybe that is a bad comparison...).
And anarchy is mahem, I'm far too lazy for mahem.
Anarkia: (Greek) lacking a king. Anarchy means lack of a government. It does not imply mayhem. An anarchistic society is more likely to be peaceful than one ruled by either Jerry Falwell or Vladimir Lenin. Government is often little more than deadly force institutionalized. Most government is not legitimate. Didn't your parents teach you that violence rarely ever solves anything?
An anarchistic society is more likely to be peaceful than one ruled by either Jerry Falwell or Vladimir Lenin
Fair enough, if supported by evidence. What examples can you offer?
Yes, and how might I avoid that without asking the question?
My point in asking was to understand exactly what libertarians do advocate. I was looking for an informative answer.
I have wondered that myself. Most everything I have actually learned that had any bearing on the real world, outside of accounting, I learned outside of school. Then again, I have always had a desire to learn and have found that one lifetime is not nearly enough time to learn all that I would like to know.
I could have written that myself, including the part about accounting.
Nice to meet another lover of learning. I'll remember your screen
name and look forward to your opinions on other subjects.
Oh gee, let me think, it settled the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Spanish/American War, WW1, WW2, and it will settle this War on Terror.
Lack of government is chaos, like what we have now, we lack principled governance, but even though it's bad and getting ever worse and will eventually disolve into chaos, it still beats no government at the present time.
Libertarians are similar to liberals seems to me, both given to flights of fancy. I get tickled at the PC movies where the liberal talks the killer out of his weapon using shame, reason, and sympathy. Liberals and Libertaires must have led sheltered lives, if they really believe that stuff.
...derive their authority from something other than an obligation to protect the liberty of the people.
Have you an example of the above?
The Spanish/American war was a war of aggression and the War on Terror is not even a declared war. The majority of the powers the feds have assumed during it will do nothing but help to oppress the public. Bush has made no case for why the feds need any new powers at all. If the terrorists are in as large of numbers as they claim then do some good intel work and dispatch infantry to kill them, even if that means busting down someone's apartment door and shooting them in bed. The US faced a similar situation with the Left back in the turn of the 20th century. Good police investigations to get the names of the terrorists did the job without creating a police state. All we need is to pull SEAL team 5 off any current assignments and use it to hunt down and kill any terrorist on our soil.
Lack of government is chaos, like what we have now, we lack principled governance, but even though it's bad and getting ever worse and will eventually disolve into chaos, it still beats no government at the present time.
Your argument, like all religionist arguments against anarchism, puts absolutely not one iota of faith in the ability of the people to not slaughter each other like cattle, rape and pillage each other and destroy all of human civilization without the threat of the guillotine hanging over their heads. It is also built on a completely irrational basis. If man is not good enough to rule himself, he is absolutely under no circumstances good enough to rule another. If anarchy cannot work then its opposite is a guaranteed failure. Government works because man is capable of governing himself competently. If he were not, then the government would collapse within a year of its establishment.
And 80% of Libertarians would blow his head off if they had a gun and could do so without putting a hostage or something like that in danger. We tend to have far less qualms about retaliating in self-defense than conservatives. That's one of the reasons why you won't see a libertarian having compassion for a heroin addict who committs a violent crime. We blame the a$$hole, not the drug for the crime.
Liberals and Libertaires must have led sheltered lives, if they really believe that stuff.
Leftists, yes. My libertarianism is the result of seeing the herd-mentality imposed on most of my peers by religious-totalitarianism and wanting none of it. You have no right to legislate away the product of my labor to fund your "poverty war" programs, to support your elderly who never bothered to save for their retirement nor your socialized healthcare for the poor. The only legitimate functions of government are providing basic infrastructure like roads, military, police and courts.
The level of corruption in both leftist and rightist dominated government in this country would make Ken Lay blush yet most people don't have the will to reform. They think they also have the right to continue grafting more of the wages of productive workers for their petty little programs. They think it is legitimate because they voted for it. Pure rubbish. Democracy is the most sinister form of might-makes-right. If government were limited to its true rightful functions people could be chosen at random from the law-abiding population to serve 1 year terms in Congress/State assembly. Such people would have far more balls when dealing with government corruption because they'd be coming in as some average joe who has had to spend most of his/her life funding it.
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