Posted on 07/13/2002 2:49:41 PM PDT by fporretto
Second, the Catholic Church never taught that life began at three months. St. Thomas Aquinas taught that in his Summa Theologica. One of his very rare errors. He was not pope. He was not infallible as he would have freely conceded. He believed that the female in utero was not "ensouled" until midway through the pregnancy but that the male was "ensouled" earlier. The inference was that humanity was not present until the soul was present. Nonetheless, if St. Thomas Aquinas were alive today and learned simply what the teaching of this pope is in Evangelium Vitae, St. Thomas would smack his forhead and exclaim: Of course, of course, why didn't I realize that. He is not a Doctor of the Church to rewards rebelliousness. Also, obtain a copy of the freely available Didache which is the earliest Church writings that are not Scripture (ca. 120 A.D.) and see that abortion, all abortion, at ANY stage of pregnancy was prohibited from the outset. So, yes, you are wrong.
Who cares if conservatives of libertarian bent are comfortable with libertarian atheists and agnostics? Well, we got along without you before we met you and we can get along without you now so I guess you ought to care. If you want to coalition build in order to lower your taxes or ome such thing, count us out unless you are willing to also address our issues. There is no issue more important than the mass murder which is abortion. I have no interest in promoting to political power (or sharing conservative power with) those who do not believe in God, heaven, hell, the afterlife, et al., for the reasons I have previously stated and which you, as an apparent non-believer do not see fit to address for obvious reasons. You will find yourself an infinitesimal minority of godless capitalists or whatever you may be or you will find yourselves allied with the godless Left.
I have previously stated my admiration for the moral efforts of those sincere atheists or agnostics who nonetheless strive for moral results and heroically, I might add. Nonetheless, like Rand's, theirs is a lonely path, strewn with major obstacles and void of serious assets. In the last analysis, libertarianism is a sterile creed and a poor substitute for the real thing. It has its moments as noted by Frank Meyer, but after struggling with himself and his atheism and then agnosticism for nearly twenty-five years, Mr. Meyer was baptized a Catholic on his deathbed, advanced lung cancer having dramatically focused his attention. He was a wonderful and insightful man of stupendous personal integrity and is still missed thirty years later by those who had the privilege of knowing him. Murray Rothbard, also died a fervent Christian and devoted his last years to explaining that to libertarians. It was in all the papers.
If by Natural Rights, you mean the anarchistic excesses of the French Revolution or the various miniRands of our own era, thanks, but no thanks. Natural Law, on the other hand, proceeds from God and is a very well-developed idea particularly in such works as Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas who is even more worthy of attention after 800 years than even Murray Rothbard or John Stuart Mill.
If you simply disagree on some matters of policy, you MAY still be worthy of alliance but if you think that the issue of the implications of belief in God, heaven, hell, afterlife, etc., are not worth discussing intelligently and respectfully, then what are we missing by not allying with you? It is easier to convert misguided and ignorant liberals negatively indoctrinated in government schools and to turn them into knowledgeable and effective warriors for actual freedom than to convert self-obsessed libertarians.
The cost-benefit analysis of coalition building does not militate in favor of people whose assumed personal right to keep themselves drugged occupies a high priority or who would sooner the poor die and get out of their wallets or think that Bruce and Lance make a lovely couple and ought to be allowed to marry, or whatever. I personally don't care if anyone wants to spend their lives medicated legally or otherwise unless it affects me, my family or the society in which we live.
Many of us are simply not impressed with the pseudo-profundity of a "movement" which is of temporary use to the hard left as were the Spanish anarchists of the 1930s but will be crushed by the left when the time comes. We are not drafting anyone. Believe as you wish. This is America in which you ought always to be free to believe anything or nothing.
And no, we are not liberals, but grown-ups who understand that with rights go responsibilities. I say this as one who has read the Lysander Spooners, the Robert Nozicks, and a raft of other libertarian authors, each, oh so impressed with the absolute imperative of his or her every whim as to his or her own life, with nary a care for the hard work necessary to give them the opportunity and freedom to publicly speculate. I must have read Atlas Shrugged and most of Rand's other books five times each so thrilled was I with her authoritarian tione in service to the absolute value of her own self-worship. I served in my misspent youth as a state officer of the Libertarian Party. Eventually, I grew up and put away the things of a child.
This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endured it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws."
If the LP is in the forefront of anything it is in intramural exercises in verbal ideological masturbation. Not that I hold strong opinions or anything, you understand.
Golly, what is "Jeesh" slang for? Just thought I'd ask.
Could the constitution be so amended? Such an amendment would violate several other inalienable rights, imo, and thus be unconstitutional on its face.
Without a doubt, YES, it would be Constitutional.
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, as established by the people. Furthermore, the Constitution includes provisions for making ANY amendment to the Constitution that the people (three fourths of the several states) may deem appropriate. If the people were stupid enough to vote for it, an amendment could, within the bounds of the Constitution, take away any of the rights that are enumerated elsewhere in the Constitution. Similarly, an amendment could establish a national religion.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Note that the only restriction that was ever placed on amendments expired in 1808. In fact, if those restrictions had still been in place in 1913, the 16th Amendment would have been un-Constitutional. Come to think of it, I wish that had been a permanent restriction. Our country would not be in the bad condition it is in today, had that been a permanent restriction.
But, since there are no remaining restrictions to amendments, an amendment could establish a national religion or take away our right to worship legally, at all.
Regardless, if you want to make abortion illegal, the first step must be to amend the Constitution to negate the first phrase of the First Amendment, which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...". As long as that phrase remains operative, any attempt to make abortion illegal will be un-Constitutional, as it would have the effect of establishing Christianity as a national religion, over other religions that have congregations in this country, of which many, not only allow abortion, but even see it as a valid method of sex selection.
I am certainly opposed to abortion, but without our Constitution, we would likely not even have freedom of religion. Our Constitution has been eroded by both Democrats and Republicans for many reasons, using the excuse that the Constitution is a "living document", ignoring the fact that what makes it alive, is the amendment process.
We must ask ourselves a question. Do you want to further erode the Constitution or do it right and strengthen it?
Economic Left/Right: 4.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.25
Thanks for linking that test Lex...I always liked that one.
EBUCK
Good question butm a better question might be...If the state deems the mother un-fit will they take the fetus and grow it in said lab. I can almost gurantee that women in prison would be forced through this process if/when the technology becomes avaliable.
EBUCK
EBUCK
Well the murder (of adults) is illegal. Aeeing as that's one of the commandments, using your liberal interpretation of the Ist Ammendment this is unconstitutional as it established Christianity as the national religion.
Without a doubt, YES, it would be Constitutional. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, --
Yes indeed, and a republican form of government is guaranteed, as are life, liberty, and property, under the bill of [inalienable, imo] rights. -- In other words, such basic rights cannot be 'amended'/prohibited/taken away by majority rule.
-- They can only be reasonably 'regulated' by local/state laws, using constitutional due process.
--- as established by the people. Furthermore, the Constitution includes provisions for making ANY amendment to the Constitution that the people (three fourths of the several states) may deem appropriate. If the people were stupid enough to vote for it, an amendment could, within the bounds of the Constitution, take away any of the rights that are enumerated elsewhere in the Constitution. Similarly, an amendment could establish a national religion.
We fought a civil war over this theory that rights are what a majority SAY they are.
-- I don't really understand the reasoning behind denying that our basic rights are inalienable.
Maybe someone, someday, can explain.
Andy Melechinsky! I met Andy many years ago when I was just starting out as a libertarian evangelist.
I think I heard that he passed away a few years ago. If anyone has ever stood at the Judgement with a clear record on the matter of living a life of direct resistance to the violence of the state and not just standing by tolerating the violence of the state--it was Andy Melechinsky.
The state would send their soldiers after Andy, and he would go just limp and force them to drag him away. And then he'd grind them down with the common law and trial by jury--where the citizens declare their rights vis-a-vis the government and not the other way around.
I am curious. Exactly at which point during the gestation process does an unborn child become endowed with rights?
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