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Astronomers reach the event horizon
The New Scientist ^ | July 12, 2002 | Robin Orwant and Hazel Muir

Posted on 07/12/2002 3:38:57 PM PDT by gcruse

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1 posted on 07/12/2002 3:38:57 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: gcruse
If so, tracking the hot spots could allow astronomers to measure how fast the black hole inside is spinning.

I thought the black hole proper was literally a mathematical point. How can a point spin?

(Another dumb question from a guy who quit physics just before they got to the bizarre stuff.)

2 posted on 07/12/2002 3:50:22 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
What's spinning is spacetime around the event horizon, in a phenomenon known as "frame dragging." What's inside the even horizon, be it a single point or leaping leprochauns, is essentially unknowable in our universe.
3 posted on 07/12/2002 3:53:28 PM PDT by mvpel
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To: gcruse
That Einstein was a most amazing guy.
4 posted on 07/12/2002 3:56:21 PM PDT by Drammach
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To: LibWhacker; RightWhale; Physicist
I thought the black hole proper was literally
a mathematical point. How can a point spin?

Gravitational collapse imparts spin, I would
think, from the conservation of angular velocity.
Much as pulling you arms in as you twirl on
your toes is supposed to speed you up,
the collapse into singularity would take
its spin with it.  Being a point  doesn't
mean never saying "I'm dizzy."  But
the real experts should be along shortly. :)

5 posted on 07/12/2002 3:56:53 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: mvpel
leaping leprochauns

Ah yes. Leaping Leprochauns. Aren't they predicted by string "theory"?

6 posted on 07/12/2002 3:57:48 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: gcruse
a broad "fingerprint" generated by iron

Something like the surprising amount of iron on an extremely redshifted quasar on another thread yesterday. That's a black hole, too.

7 posted on 07/12/2002 4:00:23 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: LibWhacker
Point singularities almost invariably have spin.
8 posted on 07/12/2002 4:03:06 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: RightWhale
There may be a connection, you think?
9 posted on 07/12/2002 4:03:48 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: LibWhacker
Cosmology class is a many years behind me, but the black hole is created when the conditions are met concerning the particles, so they have size - the size, I believe, is measured at where those final conditions were met (they can grow, too...)
10 posted on 07/12/2002 4:04:22 PM PDT by Senator Pardek
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To: mvpel
Thank you. :-) Mvpel, do you happen to know if physicists know whether c is a limiting speed on matter once it's crossed over the event horizon?

Just trying to imagine matter being sucked toward the centerpoint after it has crossed the event horizon. I imagine it zips along pretty quickly. Whether or not it's still matter after crossing that boundary, I have NO idea. :-)

11 posted on 07/12/2002 4:07:48 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: gcruse
Everything that goes into Black Holes eventually comes out as Big Bangs somewhere in the cosmos. It happens all the time.
12 posted on 07/12/2002 4:13:24 PM PDT by Consort
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To: gcruse
There may be a connection

Aside from size, the are both black holes. The iron in this one is expected since it was a star, probably 2nd generation or later, of relatively recent creation and so it would be expected to have a lot of iron. The quasar would have been an entire galaxy created near the time of the Big Bang and shouldn't have had time to evolve so much iron.

13 posted on 07/12/2002 4:17:16 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: LibWhacker
A "black hole" has a radius - called the "event horizon". Nothing inside this radius escapes. Objects falling towards the "event horizon" experience severe time dilation.

Hey! It's weird out there!

14 posted on 07/12/2002 4:17:27 PM PDT by RossA
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To: Jimer
It's a nice thought. But I haven't read of anyone discovering a white hole.
15 posted on 07/12/2002 4:34:56 PM PDT by gcruse
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: RossA
A "black hole" has a radius - called the "event horizon".

Right, the event horizon definitely has a radius. But I've read that's not really the beginning of the black hole proper. It's just the solution to an arbitrary mathematical problem; namely, find the equation for the boundary beyond which you're not getting out. The black hole proper is at the very center, and is no larger than a mathematical point.

I particularly liked the frame dragging explanation, but there are a lot of other interesting comments here about it, too.

Thanks, everyone . . . I love these threads! :-) A lot of smart people hang out at FR, that's for sure.

17 posted on 07/12/2002 4:42:09 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
I thought the black hole proper was literally a mathematical point. How can a point spin?

A black hole ends in a singularity, i.e. a point where the known laws of nature break down. We don't really know much about them, it's really off the wall stuff, but perhaps the high gravity has some effect not on the black hole but on the area of space-time directly surrounding the black hole, giving it the effect of spinning.

18 posted on 07/12/2002 4:48:24 PM PDT by maquiladora
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To: maquiladora
We don't really know much about them

However, it seems possible and within the laws of physics so far, to use a black hole to do some limited time travel.

19 posted on 07/12/2002 4:53:16 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: LibWhacker
Right, the event horizon definitely has a radius.

Actually, it has a circumfrence and surface area. There's no way to measure the radius.

Hawking's theorem that 'a black hole has no hair' is interesting: it states that the only measurable quantities associated with one are its mass, angular momentum, and electric charge. In particular, there is no observable difference between a hole that was originally matter, one that was originally anti-matter, and one that was orginally just light or graviatational waves (assuming that's possible)

20 posted on 07/12/2002 4:57:30 PM PDT by Virginia-American
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