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To: Jeff Head
by making the end game the economic pursuit and achievement ... you have missed the point IMHO about why the nation was formed

The biggest reason why the colonies declared independence from England in the first place was taxes, which is an economic issue. Do you remember the Boston Tea Party and the slogan, "No taxes without representation!" The colonists declared independence because of the economic issue of taxes!

The colonies were basically trading outposts that grew very large over time and they no longer appreciated the British king interfering with commercial activities anymore. So they declared independence. Did you know half the signers of the Declaration of Independence were engaged in the business of international trade?

So talk about principles all you want, but it was economic issues that brought about the founding of the USA.

Additionally, around that time, the French economic class, the "bourgeoisie," also no longer appreciated their king interfering in their economic affairs. So the bourgeoisie instigated and were the driving force behind the French Revolution.

So modern-day Western republics were born out of economic issues.

143 posted on 07/13/2002 1:14:32 AM PDT by AIG
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To: AIG
Your misunderstanding continues . Read the Declaration of Independence. It was a LONG train of abuses. Those abuses (and many of them did have an economic basis) struck at the heart of the very reason the people came to America ... and that was to enjoy religious freedom, freedom of speech, etc. ... the liberty that was ultimately established here.

You may continue to get the horse before the cart all you want ... and you may feel these things very strongly yourself. But the principle reasons for the founding of this nation were the underlying principles that allow for what you describe, just what I have said to you. The other prosperity issues came along as a consequence of adherance to those principles ... and it took some time for them to come along.

Keep repeating this to yourself ... America is great, because America is good

Understanding this once and for all will reveal to you how enemies of the liberty this Republic is built upon continue to attack her at that root. It is a critical root.

Do not misunderstand. The ability for the individual to own property (really OWN it) and to make something of themself and climb as high as their ingenuity and hard work will take them is fundamentally an American trait. But the capability to do that was rooted in the other fundamental, more intrinsic values that allow it to be accomplished according to the moral foundations intrinsic to the rights endowed upon those citizens by their Creator. To misunderstand this, is to miss the fundamental bedrock point about this great Republic.

If all of society misses that point ... we will cease to be what we were designed to be, and we will depart from that path that Washington was so sure we would remain upon. Thankfully, despite the sham presented by the major media, hollywood and others ... we have not.

One other point regarding Democracies and third woprld varieties. It is precisely because they lean far towards the "democratic" side of the spectrum as opposed to a Republic, and it is precisely because their system is not based on the same types of values IMHO in many cases that they fail. If they want to emulate the succes here, they will have to emulate the basis for it ... not just the shell or husk.

In addition, it is precisely because we in this nation have begun to adopt much more of a pure democracy tendency that we have some of our problems. The other reasons are equally the same ... we have been hurt morally and this has hurt us to the core. But we shall recover.

Having said all of this, I am very comfortable with the presentation of both sides of this discussion. I will leave it up to those reading to come to their own conclusion witout further adieu ... if you care to do the same.

Even though I disagree with you fundamentally, and feel that there is a great danger and threat to our society and Republic if people adopt such short sighted basis for their daily interaction (and I am mot saying that doing well economically is intrinsically wrong, just that the basis for it is the key) ... at least I can thank you for a fairly reasoned discussion.

But such an atitude as what you describe on the part of the major part of the populace would lead ... indeed is leading ... to people being much more concerned about their creature comforts than they are about the basis for their lives and their freedoms. When that happens, they are ready to surrender their freedoms to the first person or group of persons who will seemingly credably promise them the comfort and security. The foundeers warned against this very directly.

"A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy.... While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.... If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security." - Samuel Adams

149 posted on 07/13/2002 1:43:22 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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