Lutheran pastor suspended for participating in interfaith service

Mpls (red)Star Tribune / AP ^ | 7/9/02 | AP

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

Please remember the source of this information. As a longtime LCMS member and one who is determined to keep our doctrine intact and our rich tradition alive, I can tell you that Benke's suspension was absolutely the right action.

I cannot do it at this moment, but I will try to provide some links later that will make the picture very clear.

Sadly, the LCMS is under the same liberal assault that many churches find themselves today. You might be surprised to learn of some of the outrageous things that LCMS members are expected to accept.

Thankfully, many congregations and many members are not going to stand still while the poison slowly seeps in under the guise of progress and growth.

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

This link is loaded with information and articles about some of the turmoil and conflict within the Missouri Synod. Scroll down to the heading of "Unionism" to read any number of articles about Benke and related issues.

It may give you a better idea of why the suspension was indeed correct.

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

May be of interest to you.

[GingisK]

The LCMS is completely out of line with this one.

Scripture also says that when your evangilism is met with hardness of the heart, you should "knock thier dust off your shoes and continue down the road where you might do some good".

Glad you are where you are.

[r9etb]

Glad you are where you are.

I hope by "where you are" you didn't mean "far away!" ;-)

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

This says all that needs to be said, IMO.

[egarvue]

Thanks for the link, Southflanknorthpawsis. And SaraW, as for "we are only saved through Jesus Christ and that every other is a path to hell" being in your words, "crap", that IS the essential teaching of Christianity. No, our "tolerant" society doesn't like to hear that, but that's what Christianty is all about. In many denominations, including the LCMS, liberals are trying to obscure this, preaching "tolerance", "diversity", "inclusiveness", and "compassion", rather than the true core of Christianity: We are all sinners, in need of salvation, and without Christ we are damned.

[GingisK]

2 Corinthians 6:14

Thanks for the needed reference. I'm at work, so I have time for only for "hit an run" instead of search for pertinent material. Hang in there.

[coramdeo]

You can't fulfill the Great Commission if you're not willing to go and speak of Christ among non-Christians. From the sounds of it, Benke did precisely what he should have done.

No, you don't fulfill the Great Commission by going and blending in with non-believers. If he wanted to participate as a Christian, he should have gone and preached the Gospel. I am not Lutheran, but I applaud their courageous action, and would hope my denomination would take the same stand. God's glory is far more important than public opinion.

[hunter112]

Very nice, I wondered what those Middle Ages debates about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin must have looked like! Thanks for your vision of "my interpretation of a 2000 year old fairy tale is better than your interpretation of it, and you're going to hell for it" reasoning.

Your kind of thinking is one reason we should leave religion out of memorial services designed to heal people's anxieties and pain, but there still seem to be so very many who are comforted by it.....

[egarvue]

And I must commend you on your very nice straw man argument. I won't debate you over your construct of a religion that you already deem a "fairy tale". But we do agree, in essence - our minister should have never been there at that service. Your reason being that you believe that religion has no place there, my reason is that by our minister being there, he has confused, obfuscated, and obscured the real message of Christianity - which, judging from your's and other's comments on this thread, he has succeded beyond imagination.

[hunter112]

I'm sorry, I have left you only enough words to misinterpret my meaning. The point I wanted to make was that this was to be a service of healing, a coming together of a community to rebuild its spirit. Since so many look to religion as a potential source of the strength to achieve that healing, its value as a support to people in need of guidance and comfort is diminished to nothingness when petty fights about whose version of "divine truth" should crowd out the others. By showing this bickering and divisiveness about a minister of your faith trying to join with a community of fellow Americans to merely bring the relief his training and experience could be expected to add, your church (and all the other refuseniks) have instead shown that extremely partisan defenses of ancient doctrines are NOT the way to achieve healing.

Yes, I deem religion the choice to make a lifestyle out of a "fairy tale" (which is the believer's Constitutional right), but when following that lifestyle produces the inability to get along with other people either in daily tasks, or extraordinary circumstances, then it is better practiced behind the closed doors of a sanctuary. While I do paradoxically agree that your particular brand of religion should not have been at that ceremony, I applaud your minister for rising above the demogogary of the elders of his "faith". Perhaps he will take it as a sign to go find a church to preach from that accepts all human beings as they are, rather than measuring them by their 100% adherance to all 1000 (or so) narrowly-defined dogmas, some of which were codified by despots of the 4th century, who had no idea what the historic Jesus really did or didn't say.

It's been stated many times here at Free Republic that the Founding Fathers would not recognize the US government we have today as being of their creation, similarly, one must wonder at what Jesus would think of the current state of Christianity.

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

You don't get it, do you? It is not about healing. It is about praying and Christians only do so to the Triune God and with fellow believers.

It's uncomplicated and not restricted to any denominational dogma. Christians pray with other Christians and pray only to the one true God.

Call it zero tolerance, if you will. Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." He did not say I am one of many ways.

[hunter112]

All I get is this: It was supposed to be an interfaith service on September 23, when there was still a flicker of hope of finding a live person in the still-smoking ruins. The people who belonged to the churches that reach out to their neighbors wanted to show compassion for the still shocked people of New York City, and to gather together in hope and prayer as a gesture of solidarity for the survivors still seeking their loved ones, and answers as to why this happened. Churches that either refused to participate (or criticized those who did participate after the fact) over petty religious differences actively denied their comfort to those people. What would your vision of Jesus do? Put people to death over whether he was God, or man, or God and man, as those 4th century despots that I referred to earlier would? These are the kinds of minds that would produce volumes of justification for criticizing this minister for trying to bring what he believed was God's love to people in need. Good thing the church elders set him straight on that!

By the way, before you go quoting Jesus, you, nor I, nor anyone has any way of knowing exactly what he said. Not a single word of it was written down until at least a century after his death, and by that time, a persecuted band of people had metamorphised all the stories into legends. Even then, the written legends were sorted out centuries later by people who had nothing but their personal predjudices to guide them as to what to keep and what to throw out. Build a lifestyle of belief on that, if you wish, but don't sell that belief as a religion of love if you would deny ordinary decent human compassion to those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy.

If you combine such righteous narrowmindedness about the will of some supposed God, with the willingness to kill, you have exactly the mindset of those who flew the planes into the towers and created the need for the interfaith service in the first place.

[jettester]

I disagree - most studies today (Barnum's for example) show that most mainstream denominations are losing (actually, not gaining new members) people because they are either unwilling, unable, or incapable of presenting the Good News in a modern and culturally relevant manner. How the Gospel was shared 100 or even 50 years ago doesn't work today. I also personally believe that many of the resons denominations have split over the years have more to do with doctrine than Christian theology. Those doctrinal issues continue to be viewed by those outside the church as very petty and too decisive to get involved with.

Do churches "water down" the Word? I am sure there are some that do, but they will be held accountable for what the have "taken away" from the truth. However, how many churches are losing new potential members because the message they present cannot be related to the situations that people face today?

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

You are a person of many words and little wisdom. Simply put......you're clueless.

However, it will not always be so. You and every person that ever walked this earth will stand before Almighty God some day. I hope you decide to make His acquaintance before then.

[jettester]

I find myself agreeing with many of your comments as they relate to how Jesus would have handled the situation if He had been here on the 23rd. Jesus never shut Himself off from those that needed Him except for times of rest and recuperation (after taking care of extraodinary amounts of people!). In fact He taught right along side of the Temple teachers to those that would hear Him.

However, your point about when a lot of the New Testament was written is pretty off-base. Paul's writtings were almost all in the form of letters which were shared amongst all of the churches he helped establish. Also, you can tell about the veracity of the things Christ said because of the seperate eyewitness accounts, that while different in overall content, were pretty explicitly similar when Christ spoke.

[Southflanknorthpawsis]

However, how many churches are losing new potential members because the message they present cannot be related to the situations that people face today?

You have every right to have this opinion, but I disagree. Evidence shows the contrary. Biblical truths are timeless and do not change for a generational "fit". Once that attempt is undertaken, trouble begins.

I am linking a very interesting article that thoroughly discusses many of the misconceptions of the updating you allude to. The article happens to apply to LCMS, but I'm sure you can change the name and apply it to other denominations as well.

THIS is a worthwhile read if the topic interests you.

[hunter112]

Thanks for the personal attack, surely on that judgement day, your version of God will thank you for it. Probably in front of me, I'll bet you think that. Smugness surely must exist in heaven, if it is the right way on earth, yes?

All that 9/11 taught me about religion is that any god who could let that happen must be Islam's god, and I could never pray to any god who would reward them for what they have done. Better to spend eternity in some medieval artist's vision of hell (conjured up for kings to keep people in line with religion) than to glorify a god who promises virgins to evil "martyrs" who are rewarded for the number of unbelievers they take out with them.

[jettester]

I am not speaking of the truths being changed - I'm talking about applying the truths to events that are being faced by today's society. As an analogy, how can you tell a foreigner directions if you don't share a common language? You would probably use a translator, which effectively is what a pastor is to the unsaved world.