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VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP
TORCH, TEXAS EAGLE FORUM | MARCH 1999 | CATHY ADANS

Posted on 07/05/2002 6:49:32 AM PDT by capecodder

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To: FreeTally
Vouchers are not scholarships.
Thats the name of the Florida program.

I'm sure you also read all the way thru it, and saw the many references to "scholarship" within. It is a scholarship program, not a voucher program.

Not once are vouchers tied to it or referenced within it.

81 posted on 07/05/2002 9:16:52 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: FreeTally
Great points, but I have to refute your point about atheists: There seem to be a large number of them who are quite content to use their children as guinea pigs and don't care what emotional damage is inflicted on them. I read some writings from one of Madeline Murray O'Hares kids (if I remember correctly, it may have been someone else, but definetly a litigious atheist type) and it was really heartbreaking that a mother could be so callous toward her children.
82 posted on 07/05/2002 9:19:13 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: Starwind
I'm sure you also read all the way thru it, and saw the many references to "scholarship" within. It is a scholarship program, not a voucher program.

The voucher program in the State of Florida, the State I have lived all of my life in, has a voucher program called "Opportunity Scholarship Program". I know what the words say, but that IS the State voucher program.

The word "voucher" is not used because, well, just look at the responses the mere mention of the word evokes from both sides.

83 posted on 07/05/2002 9:21:29 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: capecodder; mhking; mafree
In your dreams will I say "no" to them (and I don't even have kids).

For all you voucher naysayers, has it ever occurred to you how huge this ruling was for our side and how detrimental it was for the teachers' unions? We get a victory and I'll be doggone if we hurry up and throw it away. Political understanding is not very high on our side. But keep up the mantra. I'll work to marginalize the negativity because this is huge for us, even if some of us can't seem to get their minds around it.

84 posted on 07/05/2002 9:27:06 AM PDT by rdb3
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To: FreeTally; capecodder
I'll search for information about Florida's voucher program vs scholarship program, and tell you what I find.

For the moment, I have a legal difficulty with using words that have legal meanings, like "scholarship", to label something describing scholarship participation requirements, but claim it to be a "voucher" system, which has another legal definition entirely.

But I'll wait to see what I learn about Florida specifically.
85 posted on 07/05/2002 9:27:32 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: rdb3
Vouchers won't solve every problem with education but they're better than nothing. They've given many low-income families more of a stake in their childrens' education.
86 posted on 07/05/2002 9:35:12 AM PDT by mafree
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To: Starwind
Yes, that may be helpful to you to do some research. Let me point out this as well:(from capecodders post)

The private school must include in its school profile the percentage of teachers who hold regular Florida teaching certificates.

Teaching certificates are for kindergarten, elementary and high school teachers. "Scholarships" are for colleges. I know the wording may be confusing, but the fact that they speak of teaching certificates, it should be easy to realize this is not a college scholarship program.

Like we posted, this is the official title of the program. Yes, the word "scholarship" implies other things, but I can't help that.

87 posted on 07/05/2002 9:35:22 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: c-b 1
Good point.
88 posted on 07/05/2002 9:37:52 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: ThomasJefferson
On what basis do you argue that the regulation will only get worse? Has the regulation of grocery stores become worse since the introduction of food stamps? Perhaps....but this I don't see how this anything to do with food stamps per se. Why wouldn't the same apply to vouchers?
89 posted on 07/05/2002 9:40:14 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: capecodder
Mt take on vouchers is simple: I'm getting my money back. I want to send my kid to a private school and I want to have some of my property taxes returned ot me in order to support my choice.

And on a tangent: I think everyone should have to pay something to send their kids to school. People usually care a little more about something when they have to pay for it, and having to pay, even for public school, might make parents a little more attentive to it. It's like if you have to buy a car for yourself, which most of us do, you usually are rather quick to phone the dealer if it breaks down all the time.

When something's free, you don't expect much from it. I think free school should rank right up there with a free school lunch - should be means tested.

Or did I miss the right to a free education somewhere in the Bill of Rights?


90 posted on 07/05/2002 9:46:38 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: Puddleglum
sorry for all the ytpos ;-)
91 posted on 07/05/2002 9:47:47 AM PDT by Puddleglum
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To: FreeTally
To everyone on this thread: So that I may gain insight as to where you are comming from, and as to your knowledge of private schools, who here either went to a private school or sends their children to one?

I was home schooled for all but two of my school years. I attended public school for kindergarten and a small private school for 12th grade so I could have an accredited diploma.

No kids. But I am planing on home schooling for at least the first few years.

a.cricket

92 posted on 07/05/2002 9:49:58 AM PDT by another cricket
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To: another cricket
We homeschool right now.
Notice how the public school supporters talk about divirsity of different ideas, Planned Parenthood is welcomed to teach abortion as an individual right, as well as GLADD and the individual right to Sodomy.
Now that parents are asking for choice and individual rights, take a look at how they respond.
This issue has nothing to do with education to them. That's not what they teach. This issue is about social control.
93 posted on 07/05/2002 9:56:15 AM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: Austin Willard Wright
On what basis do you argue that the regulation will only get worse?

As I pointed out, all private schools, even home schools, are subject to many regulations already. I ask you if you can cite a time when money was provided by the government without strings attached? So there will be more regulation.

Has the regulation of grocery stores become worse since the introduction of food stamps? Perhaps....but this I don't see how this anything to do with food stamps per se.

Food stamps carry strings for the users, not the providers for the most part. That is why the analogy is flawed. AS far as the stores go, the regulations on the stores have become worse (increased cost to the stores for bookkeeping, etc) but not in a big enough way to make a point about it.

94 posted on 07/05/2002 9:56:51 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
I ask you if you can cite a time when money was provided by the government without strings attached?

Vouchers are just are parents keeping their school tax money. How can government regulate tax rebates? Do they regualte tax refunds now?

95 posted on 07/05/2002 10:07:23 AM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: FreeTally; capecodder
Agreed. It would seem Florida passed a rather restrictive 'voucher' program, and labeled it 'opportunity scholarship' program.

Recognizing this, as others pointed out above, most private schools in Florida have opt-ed out of the Florida Opportunity Scholarship Program on the basis of it being too intrusive.

Clearly, Florida private schools, constitutionally already have fairly wide latitude in their academic and admission standards and fee structure.

The recent SCOTUS ruling that 'vouchers' are also constitutional may give Florida legislators the basis to remove some of their existing restrictions, at which point Florida's private schools may then begin to opt-in.

Bottom line, yes Florida has an intrusive 'voucher' program, but private schools may opt out as they choose. They are not hurt by vouchers, just Florida parents are hurt in that they still don't get the full benefit of free choice, in Florida, yet.

96 posted on 07/05/2002 10:10:58 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: concerned about politics
Vouchers are just are parents keeping their school tax money.

Incorrect, otherwise they would just send money.

How can government regulate tax rebates?

A tax rebate and a voucher are not the same thing, that is why they have different names.

Do they regualte tax refunds now?

Not a refund either.

Why not give everyone who pays for a child's education a tax CREDIT? 100%

Makes more sense doesn't it?

97 posted on 07/05/2002 10:13:13 AM PDT by Protagoras
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To: ThomasJefferson
Alaska started charter schools in response to calls from homeschoolers concerning the desire for a different direction than regular education. Our charter schools act as a bridge of support for homeschooling parents. They can receive guidance, educational support, and access to CERTIFIED teachers to assist in the educational planning for their child. Charter schools have to meet all state & district requirements, benchmarks,standards,curriculum regulations, discipline policy, scheduling, textbook requirements, and follow provisions of collective bargaining with employee unions unless both district and NEA agree otherwise.(fat chance that happening)

You see in the end, the control is still there. I don't see the govt or nea ever giving up control once they get it.

Alaska is a pretty conservative place with lots of rural people off the road system. Homeschooling is natural up here, but still there are parameters set down that must be followed.

Someone mentioned a simple tax deduction for private educational expenses. That is a much better direction. The more complex the system the more room for govt control and corruption.

I teach high school and face the govt sinking their teeth into every aspect of education on a daily basis. I believe their ultimate goal is to federalize education and all the mind control that will bring to our children. They are accomplishing their curriculum controls through standards, benchmarks, and legislation anyway.

Private schools now have much more freedom than they will after vouchers. A simple tax deduction would be better.

98 posted on 07/05/2002 10:14:59 AM PDT by Eska
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To: ThomasJefferson
Homeschools are also working for "vouchers."

April 17, 2002
Assembly Bill 6916: Education Tax Credit
Summary:
This is a tax credit bill for educational expenses, including home instruction. It would apply to families whose adjusted gross income is less than $100,000. Depending on the family's income, the credit ranges from $1,000 to $3,000. It would go into effect on January 1, 2002.

Status: This bill was referred to the Assembly Ways and Means Committee on March 6, 2001. The Committee amended it on June 14, 2001, and again on June 20, 2001. The bill currently remains in the Assembly Ways and Means Committee.
HSLDA's Position: HSLDA supports tax credits for home schooling families, so long as no additional restrictions are added to the home instruction law.

99 posted on 07/05/2002 10:16:35 AM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: capecodder
"School choice" as conservatives tend to use the phrase can be implemented several ways. The voucher is only one. Charles Murray suggested that a tuition tax credit would be preferable, both to avert the spectre of government control of private schools and to insure against kickback schemes. Of course, tax credits don't reach under-earners nearly as well as a voucher system, which is a big political demerit.

No, the food stamp didn't result in government regulation of supermarkets... but have we forgotten that government aid to colleges, and to college students in the form of loans and grants, has been used to justify thoroughgoing regulation of colleges, in particular as regards admissions policies and student racial classifications?

There is danger here. Watch the educrats' unions. If they ever cease to oppose school choice directly, their next move will strike at the choice program's point of greatest vulnerability: the place where there's leverage by which to re-establish educrat control. That's how we'll know where the political weak point is.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit the Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

100 posted on 07/05/2002 10:18:36 AM PDT by fporretto
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