The March of the Porcelain Soldiers

I can't say what it's like at Ft Jackson; that's one post I've not had the joy of visiting either during my active-duty days as an EM, as a military affairs writer for a midwest-based newspaper chain, nor in my present assignment as an S3 in a monbilization/training command battalion headquarters.

But back around last Christmas I was back around Ft Knox, where I took basic and armor AIT back in 1966. The combat arms trainees being turned out there seemed a good deal more focused than the potential coooks, clerks and mechanics Hackworth wrote about, possibly because they weren't distracted with females in their unit- so far, still no girlies in the tanks.

The same was true of Ft. Benning while I was there, those learning the Infantry job seemed to be bright and appeared to be at least as good as those with which I soldiered as grunts, if maybe a little over-confident and cocky. But that is not the worst attitude they could have.

And the young Air Force Academy cadets who I trained in aircraft radio procedures and morse code [yep, we still teach it] and the Marine reservistss who I taught ground search-and-rescue techniques were as good and attentive a group of students as I could have asked for.

On the other hand, a National Guard NCO who borrowed several dummy grenades from me for his company's *mines and grenades* familiarization training prior to their deployment to Bosnia returned them to me unused with his disappointment showing: his class for their newest recruits had been cancelled by their XO, as he was afraid that finding out what grenades could do would scare them, and they'd quit their *try one* one-year tour with the 'Guardies before they deployed....

I hope it's not as bad elsewhere as Hack reports at Jackson. But I fear he's not found the worst of it....

-archy-/-

I have to agree with MP5SD. Officer's were not G*D, but my platoon sergeant sure as hell was. It must be a culture difference. On your home page, you stated that you spent your entire career in Germany. I spent my entire career in the 3rd Ranger battalion or on the DMZ in Korea.

Now the chain of command in the units I was in were as follows: squad leader, platoon sergeant. From there it would go either to the platoon leader or the 1SG, depending on the issue. After that, it went to the Company CO. The SGM was rarely involved in any company level issues, although he was always around raising hell about something.

RLTW!

Semper Suo

As a 1stSgt (and hopefully someday a SgtMaj) I would take the Commanding Officer aside and explain to him that he has an entire battalion of Marines (or in this case soliders) to worry about not just one PFC's toothache.

I agree totally with that, 1SG- or "Top" as some of the "Old Army" guys would say. But from what I'm getting from some of the posters here is that the entire Marine protocol is different than the Army's. We have the Chain of Command and then we have the Support Chain. The Chain of command goes- squad leader, platoon leader, company commader, battalion commander- right on up to President- ie mostly officers. The Support chain goes- Squad Leader, Section Sgt (if you have it), Platoon Sgt, First Seargent, Seargent Major (Battalion), Seargent Major (Brigade), Seargent Major (Division)- Right on up to Seargent Major of the Army. Note too, that Seargent Major is the highest grade that an enlisted man can acheive. Seargent Major of the Army's grade is the same as the Battalion Seargent Major's. He has higher rank by virtue of his position but he is the same grade.

Generally speaking, in the Army, even though the chain of command is an officer's club (except for you squad leader - who btw is in both chains) the Seargents have more real power and when looked upon this way- the Seargent Major is the most powerful person in any battalion. I, as a soldier, would much rather have a conversation with our battalion commander- a Lt Col, than with the Seargent Major. A Seargent Major can make a soldier's life a living hell and you would probably see the same awe ascribed by Marines to officers applied to the Seargent Major in the Army (even though he is of technically lower rank than any officer). Our Seargent Major literally assigned Lieutenants and Captains to sh!t details in Bosnia and there was virtually nothing they could do about it- easier to do the demeaning "latrine guard" than try to pit their two years of military experience against the Seargent Major's 20.

But, apparantly, things are different and I appreciate that. I have a lot of respect of the Marines, believe it or not- but that's just a different world from the Army. But I'm not going to go along with a bunch of Pro Marine people saying that the Marines are the only "real" soldiers or that the Army is second rate. It's not true and I would fight over that.

Because anything other than the greeting of the day would have been inappropriate unless he decided to strike up a conversation. A battalion commander deals with personnel issues at a macrolevel. The companies and PAC deal with the microlevel issues.

It is jumping the chain of command for a private to go straight to a battalion commander for ANY issue. Even when using the open door policy you were supposed to attempt to resolve the issue with your company chain of command first. The first question that should come out of a BN CO's mouth should be: Have you spoken to your chain of command concerning this?

I would have to agree with that assessment WP. When I was a private, there would have been absolutely no way I would have said a word to my battalion commander unless he spoke to me directly.
If I would have ever taken it upon myself to walk up to him and ask him such an off-the-wall question as a private, every NCO in my chain of command, from my squad leader to my BN SGM would have literally kicked my ass. Shit I'd probably STILL be doing push-ups! Of course this would have been AFTER whatever punishment the BN CO handed out to me :)

True enough in many and hopefully most line TO&E units; less so as ad hoc special taskings and *joint task forces* are assembled, often under really strange chains of command- and sometimes including non-US officers in the mix. I've also seen armor units where a SP4 tank commander will be running half a tank platoon [5 tanks per platoon in my day, 4 now with the multimillion dollar Abrams driving costs up and numbers down] and coordinates happily with the headquarters company tank section- run by the battalion's commanding Lt Colonel.

And in these days of modern C3 and C4, sometimes downright to the point of outright micromanagement, we'll see more of that, as cellular and trunked commo and service-wide e-mail makes grand pronouncements from on high deserving of measured responses from below.

I don't think there was any particular problem with the recovery attempts at the Pentagon on 09/11 when Code Seven and higher officers worked side-by-side with E3 and E4 grade enlisted personnel trying to save the lives of others still in the ruined section of the Pentagon, with the knowledge that another attack could take place at any moment. Sorry, some times there's just no time to do things neat and orderly and by grade and date of rank. Get the job done, [or at least started] and then sort out and smooth out the operational details. And it's nothing new, either. Such exceptions to the rule have been around since Washington and Von Steuben's day.

-archy-/-

I know the rank structure and the chain of command. I live it everyday, but you implied that it would be appropriate for a PFC to talk to a LtCol about something as mundane as a dental appointment.

In this scenario, the PFC and the LtCol are both wrong. The LtCol should have directed the young man to his Company Cmdr (at which time the 1stSgt should have chewed his ass) who in turn would direct him to his pltsgt and plt cmdr (who should also have a piece of his ass).

If a PFC bothers a LtCol with this bs, it is not a point for the army but an example of the lax standards the army has.

I have served with soldiers in the past (on a very limited basis) and I know this kind of thing would most likely not occur, but you attempted to defend it by suggesting that the LtCol and the PFC actions were a point for the Army right there.

Now the chain of command in the units I was in were as follows: squad leader, platoon sergeant.

That might have been the way it was culturally perceived in your unit, but what you say is technically just not true. Your Platoon Seargent isn't in your chain of command- unless you don't have an assigned platoon leader- then your Platoon Seargent would fill that role.

Since when is an E7 someone you can't talk to? Maybe just being an 11C makes me different but in a mortar platoon an E7 isn't even the highest ranking guy. He's just a section seargent- unless there's no E8 available. An E7 is a font of knowledge. Why shouldn't a soldier be able to ask him a question? That's silly. I wouldn't hesitate to speak to an officer even if he was a Ranger Bat commander. What's he going to do- kill me? I don't think so.

You know, just before I got out, we had this Seargent Major that was displeased that after 8 yrs and considerable investment in me by the Army, I would decide to get out. He got right in my face- nose to nose. Trying to intimidate me. I just answered his questions and told him what I thought- man to man, standing at parade rest. Did I respect him- well, I respected his rank. Was I afraid of him or even a little bit in awe of him- NO. He looked like he wished he could step off into my a$$ because I wasn't afraid of him- but maybe he sensed that when it came to the actual deed (fighting)- I didn't see him as my superior, he didn't press the issue.

People get too caught up in their persona sometimes. Had an E2 Ranger from a Ranger bat that was training in Graf walk right into me at the AAFES bookstore because he figured (I guess) that since he was a Ranger- a mere E-4 would be obligated to step out of his way. I wasn't budging and he wasn't either. You know who budged at the end though? He did and that's the one and only time I ever used my rank in the Army to my advantage. And if he had wanted to take it further- I would've handed him his a$$.

I am an American, a free man. I am the baddest motherf++ker in the universe and I don't care if you're Mike Tyson, you're going to have to prove you can hurt me before I will fear you. I'm only a little guy. A free and free minded little guy. And nobody is better than me and I fear no man.

A LtCol has bigger issues than a PFC dental appointment and if he told the kid to come back and talk to him about the dental care he recieved, the SgtMaj of that Battalion needs to quickly correct that problem.

Right. My buddy who was in the Army told me this story because it -was- an abberation. But it seems hard to believe a Marine could get through recruit training and not know about the chain of command. I remember when I was in recruit training we seldom saw officers at all. And when we did, the DI's who regularly treated us like unworthy scum, were practically fawning over the officers when we did see them. It was all an act, I am sure. But it inculcated an attitude. Officers were special. They weren't your drinking buddy.

I think the Marine Corps does things a bit differently than the Army. I think (and I admit that this is my opinion) that the Marine Corps is able to instill institutional values that permeate the whole organization in the way that the Army does not.

To say there is -no- dfference between the Army and Marine Corps, as Prodigal Son did, is just wrong.

Walt

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge the Army and its performance by this one word of mouth incident? I figure you probably don't. I don't either, nor would I judge the Marines by the same sort of incident. I wasn't defending the incident itself- I said I don't believe the story on its face. There was either more there that we don't know, or it had been subject to exaggeration. The story doesn't even make any sense. What would be the point of going to a Colonel and asking him when your dental appointment would be? Like he keeps that in his pocket or something? And how do we know that the soldier didn't already ask everyone in his chain of command? We don't.

This sounds more to me like a story that one Marine tells another about how effed up the Army is. And my question to Marines still stands- Is there a reg that says you cannot speak to an officer? And if there's not, why would you not do so? There's a world of difference between taking your problem to the Colonel (jumping the chain) and asking him a simple question. I would never have hestitated to have spoken to an officer and I can't imagine what would keep anyone from doing so if it weren't in the regs. There's a whole section of Army rules that tell you how to speak to an officer. How to approach, how to salute, how to address, how to leave an officer's presence- but if there's a rule that says "A soldier can never speak to an officer unless spoken to first"- I have never heard of it.

You are correct and I never meant to imply otherwise. However, in the scenario brought up by Prodigal Son, a private is asking a BN CO a mundane question about a dental appointment. This is a much different scenario than field grade officers and privates working side by side to save the lives of their brothers (and sisters).

RLTW!

Semper Suo

. My buddy did say that this private was a pretty dim bulb. :)

Hey OK! Here we go! Now, I can relate to that. No shortage of dim bulbs to go around in the Army or the Marines. Maybe the Marine dim bulbs are more disciplined ;-) But I feel like I'm taking on the entire Marine Corps here. Do I love the Army- You betcher! Do I think the Army is better than the Marines? Yessir! And just like you Marine fellas will sit around and Semper Fi each other to death (or maybe it's only the rest of us that you Semper Fi to death) I will defend the Army. It's the nation's oldest and proudest institution. We've been there for America whenever she needed us and we always will be! The Army rules! I won't take anything away from you guys, but yall don't need to be dissing the Army.

Let me ask you a question. Do you judge the Army and its performance by this one word of mouth incident?

Let me ask you a question? Did you read the last line in my previous post? You know the one that says ". . .I know this kind of thing would most likely not occur. . ."

In the Corps a junior enlisted Marine does not hold casual conversations with his seniors unless the senior initiates the conversation. That's just the way it is.

And if one of my Marines asks a LtCol about a damn dental appointment, I would kill him. Just the way it is.

One last point though. You wrote "And how do we know that the soldier didn't already ask everyone in his chain of command? We don't."

In response I must say if this kid spoke to everyone in his chain of command about a dental appointment and no one helped so the kid was forced to ask a Bn Cmdr about it the entire chain of command needs to be relieved and immediately.

To say there is -no- dfference between the Army and Marine Corps, as Prodigal Son did, is just wrong.

Did I say this? If I did, you have my sincere apology. I started out his thread complaining about Hackworth constantly complaining about something he can't have and won't ever change. I might've generalized to the point where I covered the entire military with broad statements based on my own personal experience and if I went that far- I'm sorry- I don't know jack about the Marines and don't want to know jack about the Navy or Air Force. As far as the AF and Navy go- I only know that if it's a big melee I'm supposed to help the AF guy beat the sailor's a$$ ;-)

But, yes, apparantly, there are great differences between the Army and Marines. But whether you are institutionalized better or more- hmmmm. That's subjective. The Army has values as well and I feel just as much a soldier and citizen now as I did when I was in uniform. I think we won't resolve this issue on this thread.

Like I said, my original post was dealing with Hack. Hackworth is always busting on the military. Our military is going to get this job done for us and you can bet the farm on that- regardless of what Hack says.

Regardless of what is said about marines, I've never meet a dumb one in my life. That's not to say they're not out there, but I've never met one.

To be honest, if I had my choice of having to defend a support unit of marines or a support unit of Army personnel, I'd take the marines any day of the week. At least they know how to shoot, move and communicate.

One problem that Hack didn't discuss is the problem of support units not taking their infantry duties seriously. I've heard some real horror stories and have a few of my own about support folk, or REMF's as we lovingly call them in the Army (rear echelon mother f-----s).

This is what will bite us in the fourth point of contact when we fight another WW, which we will, regardless of what folks like Thomas Friedman and his ilk believe (i.e., history has ended and wars are obsolete).

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