[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I wonder if the Founding Fathers sinned when they resisted the authorities... namely King George III. 8 posted on 7/3/02 9:23 PM Pacific by Darth Sidious

No.

The "obey the Government" passage applies to a good Government... one which "punishes Evil" (Murder, Adultery, Theft, Fraud, Coercion -- Romans 13: 8-10), and respects Virtue.

Christians should obey that sort of Government... the Government which prevailed under the Equitable and Virtuous Seneca of Rome, who was the "Prime Minister" under Nero's early Government when Paul wrote that Passage.

Seneca was famously Constitutional and Just.

The first years of Nero's reign, under the direction of Burrus and Seneca, the real holders of power, were auspicious in every way. A series of regulations either abrogated or lessened the hardships of direct taxation, the arbitrariness of legislation and provincial administration, so that Rome and the empire were delighted, and the first five years of Nero's government were accounted the happiest of all time, regarded by Trajan as the best of the imperial era. ~~ The Catholic Encyclopedia

It is often pointed out, by "Submissive" christians, that the Government of Nero which followed Nero's coercive-murder of Seneca was indeed Tyrannical; and they seek to justify Christian Surrender on that basis. But there is absolutely no reason to apply Paul's words to that sort of Government. That was not the sort of Government which Paul was writing about at the time.

Paul was writing about Seneca. Besides Ron Paul, have you seen any hint of Seneca from your Government lately?

[Darth Sidious]

Excellent reply. Thank you!

[nunya bidness]

I can't argue with that.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

That was not the sort of Government which Paul was writing about at the time.

That was not the sort of Government about which Paul was writing at the time.

Forgive me, The Elements of Style; I erred in Grammar.

[Eagle Eye]

the key New Testament passage dealing with the relationship between church and state has taken on paramount importance.

Wrong. This passage has nothing to do with secular government but with church government.

To believe otherwise ignores the context of the chapter and requires one to believe that God endorsed Hitler, Stalin, etc. as His ministers.

[HiTech RedNeck]

How good does a government have to get before it passes the "Seneca test"? How is it that the conduct of any fallible man be a yardstick? This is an idea totally foreign to the Bible.

Rather the principle is that government should be obeyed to any point short of sinning. Even a tyrannical government is almost always better than no government at all.
Did not Paul write that Christians "joyfully accepted the confiscation of their property"? Yes, the Bible does say that! We are very very fortunate that we live in a country that officially ordains the freedom for its government to be roundly criticized and complained about. Only at our peril do we mistake this freedom for a divinely ordained right.