Two America West pilots charged with showing up drunk

WSVN | 07/01/02

[takenoprisoner]

I would rather fly with a pilot who has had a beer or two...since when the going gets tough they are more likely to disregard protocal to save my ass and theirs if necessary than some teetotaler who never violates a rule.

[takenoprisoner]

As for your statement that "it is so easy to fly a plane that even 13 year olds can master it",

I beg your pardon sir, but they can and do.

[Chad]

Name one 13 year old that flies a military jet or airliner. Even name one 13 year old that flies a simple Cessna 152 without a spoon-feeding, headline-grabbing instructor seated next to him. My 13 year old son can drive my SUV down the driveway, but he'd kill the entire family on the freeway. You people that want the "easy" and "overpaid" jobs of professional pilots are welcome to get the training and experience necessary for the interview. I think you'd discover that it takes more time and effort than is required of a lawyer, or even an MD. I know because I have both in my family, and they have told me so.

[Regulator]

Hey, it's a matter of timing: being in the right generation, for instance. Hiring has been fast and furious for a few years, and they have been hiring warm bodies in many cases. If you graduated UPT in 84, you would have come into the market when, about 1990? Not the greatest time. My partner (also USN F-18 guy) was in the same time frame; had a class date with Delta and got furloughed before the class was over. From 97 - 2001, the numbers have been astronomical.

From virtually zero hiring in the late 1970's (except for the wonderful little bubble in 1978), to have what - 6000 /yr at the major's? That's incredible. And it doesn't mean that all of a sudden there are all these brilliant people out there - it just means it's cyclical.

As far as wash-out in the military, there's no doubt that they push you hard. But how many of them were "military bearing" wash-outs? Mil flight training has different goals from civilian flight training. And those goals don't necessarily have anything to do with flying for a carrier.

Case in point: we had a woman go through a pre-employment sim prep at a place that I was teaching in the late 1980's, early '90s. Her name was Bonnie Warner. She had all of 900 TT when she did the sim prep, and of course was promptly hired by United (leaping over 4000 hr Mil pilots in a single bound!). Course she did have that Luge (or bobsled, I don't remember which) Gold medal in her pocket...good P.R. for United. So, did she auger in? No. You know that. The adage is, "Hire for attitude, train for skill". Yeah, right. Translation: pilots at major carriers are hired for other things than just experience. And you know it.

As far as it "taking more time than even an MD", Oh Sure. Tell Bonnie Warner that. Or tell some jerk who bought his ticket at Comair, spent two years there in the right seat of an RJ and then got on at MajorCarrier Inc. It happens, and usually just because he was there in the season they were hiring.

[takenoprisoner]

To my knowledge no 13 year old flies a military jet or airliner...but some could if asked. I figure that if I could and did drive a car at 6 years, and rode an Indian motorcycle with the suicide clutch at 12, then there are today 13 year olds who can fly a military plane or airliner. Not possible? You decide.

[Orion]

they still only work 75 hours a month (max),

Actually, they only get PAID 75 hours per month. They work about 180 hours to get that 75.

[Orion]

those who fly military fighter planes such as the F-18 are on a far different level than those who fly commercial aircraft. Not even the same league. Commercial piloting is more akin to truck driving, whether you care to admit it or not.

...and your experience in the matter is? (nothing)

Hey! moron! Tell that to Bob Shornsteimer, who had his 737 come apart 25000 feet above the Hawaiian islands, and everyone but one flight attendant lived to tell about it. How about the United crew that had their DC-10 lose all hydraulics and the captain was able to maneuver the airplane in such a matter that some actually lived to tell about it. How about the Hosers that had both engines flame out and they dead-sticked it into Lajes, and everyone lived to tell about it.

Perhaps you can take it from someone who has done both the military and commercial aviation, to tell you that you are full of $hit. But you knew that.

[Orion]

Just because the airlines (and military) hire pilots for PR purposes, does not detract from the professionalism of the rest of the industry.

Women, minorities, and Comair PFT maggots are a constant source of frustration.

If a prestigious university admits some dolt with a combined SAT of 730 (black-female from South-Central LA) does that mean the average white male with a 1500 is a worthless hanger-on?

I agree. Pilots should be paid $15k/yr, and work up to the FAA max, with no restrictions on rest. Let's see from what strata of society our pilots originate.

[Regulator]

You're too late to the party, big guy! See some of the replies. By the way, while you're emphasizing all the hard work going on in those 180 hours, why don't you describe some of that desperately difficult work. I mean, tell all the rubes here how hard it truly is!

Don't mind me if have to snicker a bit. I mean, work on your bids? He he. Give me a break.

Any guy having to work 180...no wait, the other guy said 3.5 hrs of "work" per flight hour..so it's ummm...280 hours per month to get them 80 hours, should know all of this stuff cold! By the way...would that 280 hours include walking to the employee parking lot, or just van transport time?

[Orion]

I didn't comment on the relative difficulty. I was pointing out that saying pilots work 75/mo is misleading.

It sounds like you have some serious sour grapes. Just because no one dreams about engaging in your line of work, does not justify disparaging the work others do.

That is the stuff of short-sighted and green-eyed liberals.

I love the standard pilots are held to. If one guy screws up, then we are all morons. However, if someone does a great job, then that is something any 13yo can accomplish with the proper training.

I don't give a rat's ass what you think of pilots, nor what you think about my work ethic. I do not need nor desire your admiration.

Going through life as a myopic, bitter little waste of sperm is a horrible realization of your shortcomings. Your comments speak volumes about your petty jealousy. Sorry life didn't work out for you. Vote Dem.

[Orion]

Remember: ANYONE can do a pilot's job. If it's so easy, then you should have done it.

[Joe Hadenuf]

An average airline pilot during his career will miss 90% of all Christmases. 90% of all his/her children's birthdays, 90 of all their anniversaries. They will be medically poked every 6 months, with their job on the line. Every 6 months they will spend 4 hours of hell in a simulator with their job on the line. He/she will be away from their homes and family for 17-20 days and nights every month.

That don't sound like a lot of fun. Why not just buy a nice ultra light for about $10,000, fly it when and where you want to, and leave all the BS, whiny passengers and stress behind? I have a pilot friend that did exactly that. He just didn't want to put up with all the garbage that goes along with it. He says life is to short for all the supervisors, egos and regulations.

[Regulator]

Wooo Hooo! Now that was even better than the other guy. You are easy to spin up, aren't ya tough guy?

Sorreee. Did the civilian pilot thang. Still do! Only I like owning the airplanes...as you could see from the other posts, big guy!

Nope. Actually, I went into the space industry eyes wide open, Beeg Man! It's a blast, as they say.

Say, by the way. When you guys are flying Ilyushin designed airplanes because Condit and Stonecipher need to save money, who ya gonna call when the tail rips off? Maybe...a Russian engineer? You do know that's what's going on right now, right?...and once the Boeing execs let their buddies like Gangrene over at U.S. Airways know about all the cheap engineers, won't ICAO English speaking Furrin pilots be not far behind? Boy, Y'all got some work cut out for ya. I mean, scope clauses are gonna seem passe once they start talking about submarining you with Out'O'Work Eastern block pilots.

Just pullin' your tail there Ramjet. And being easy to bait, you swallowed.

Listen. Not hundreds - but tens of my friends fly for all the different carriers. In my engineering classes, 30% went on to Air Force and Navy UPT (and they were the C students. Gotta love them ROTC Nazi's; keep the curve low. Make life easy for me). Some were bright, a lot were not. Some worked hard, flew their asses off (like me. I flew all the time, and loved every minute of it). Some only went as far as they could - and ended up further! Good for them.

Here's the gig: I made a conscious choice to go into the R&D side of aviation. I could have stayed; hell, even then a guy with glasses could get on with SkyWest, or even any number of 121 Supplementals or even others. Half the guys I know who fly for America West started out teaching in 152's in Tucson; they got hired because they were around when that carrier was ramping up. But I had something else in mind: spaceflight. At what other point in history could someone get involved with that? I've been all over the world doing space launches, flown zero-g research missions, and as far as engineering, I make a lot more than most. All in all, it's been really wild! If we didn't have NASA in the way, we'd be flying comml space missions daily these days...but history has a way of getting in the way. Oh Well.

Am I green with envy over you guys? Hah. That's hilarious. Hey - you keep telling me how hard it all is; why would I be jealous? I mean, sounds terrible, being gone all the time! Isn't that the war cry?

What I said before I'll say again: the two jerks who got on a plane with a blood alcohol of 0.091 had no goddamn business doing that. There ain't NO excuse for that, not ONE. I run a general aviation business and I won't stand for it in ANY of my pilots. People can joke about it, pretend about it, but in the end - even if you're just a $30K a year Brasilia Captain, you got no right to think you can do it, just because "our life is hard". Wrong. Bzzzt.

As far as why do pilots make what they do? That's a good discussion, especially when you consider that it defies the market: they're called unions. And the history of yours - and the way they forced the decoupling of manufacturing from operation in 1935 - is fascinating. You guys are the beneficiaries of some of the original socialists - which is why it cracks me up to hear you talk about me "voting for the Democrats". I've never figured out why you vote Republican - I guess it's just the military thing. Other than that, you're the most successful protectionists ever to operate in the U.S. Not exactly Free Market Conservatives, huh?

I'm sorry, but this is just too easy. Provoking jerks like you into slobbering insults is really too much fun. If you have to work this hard at convincing everyone you're worth so much, maybe there's something to that...and when you let a coupla bozo's act the way these two did (9 mos after the big event? what were they thinking?!), you got a serious sales job to do.

But I have faith! Hey, put on that uniform! (it's a good prop). Snap on that wheel hat! Get in front of them cameras and tell the wide eyed why you need that big money to "attract the best". The best drinkers, I guess.

[The Raven]

LOL!!!....This is really a funny thread.

[SamAdams76]

Tell that to Bob Shornsteimer, who had his 737 come apart 25000 feet above the Hawaiian islands, and everyone but one flight attendant lived to tell about it.

So what's your point? Mechanical faillures can happen to anybody. When I was 12, the brakes went out on my ten-speed and I smashed into a telephone pole losing teeth and getting stitches, lucky not to be killed, for had I not crashed into the telephone pole, I would have shot across a busy street. That doesn't make me a hero.

Spare us the stories of "hero" airplane pilots. We all know they exist and you can find heros in every walk of life. Yeah, flying an airplane is cool, but just about anybody can do it. (Except of course, for high-performance military aircraft, which does require a special breed.) I know most airplane pilots don't like to hear that, but it's true. My grandmother or my 12-year-old son could learn how to fly a plane. And there are lots of grandmothers and kids flying planes.

[Rodney King]

And, what pray tell is a "stewardess" - WHO ARE YOU? Have you even FLOWN as a passenger in the past 20 years? There is no such thing as a "stewardess" and hasn't been for 25 years.

Everybody knows what a stewardess is. Drop the PC garbage.

[Rodney King]

It is because of that incident that I changed my mind about stewardesses. A few months prior to that incident, I posted here that stewardesses should be done away with entirely. I proposed that the airlines hand out a bag lunch to each passenger as he/she boards the plane and provide vending machines in the back for such things as beer, soda, peanuts and headphones. It used to annoy me greatly to have stewardesses lug those blasted beverage carts up and down the aisles during flight, blocking off my egress to the lavaratories. But alas! I have come around on the issue of stewardesses in the months since the December incident. Stewardesses have proven their value after all. I just wish they didn't have to lug around those beverage carts. Maybe we can still stick some vending machines in the back and hand out those bag lunches. The stewardesses will then have more time to focus on suspicious passengers.

I don't think that there should be any meal at all. It's all crap anyway. There should just be a bunch of sandwich shops out on the concourse. I always bring my own food, along with a little bottle of rum that I mix in with my coke.

Of course, I don't drink much on the plane because the stewardess is always in the way with her cart of crap food, and now they have all those silly rules about not going to the lavoratory within 30 minutes of landing, etc.

[SamAdams76]

He's referring to your lack of political correctness in the use of the word "stewardess". The official nomenclature is..."Flight Attendant". Don't you feel awful?

Oh, okay. I get you. I was wondering what he was blabbing about. He's probably one of those people who call garbagemen "sanitation workers" and short-order cooks "food technicians." The problem with this is that in another ten years, those terms will be "insulting" so we'll have to make up even more glorified titles. I prefer to just call people what they are. What's so bad about being a stewardess or a garbageman? It's honest work.

[dglang]

obviously it can't take too much talent, even the terrorist pilots managed to 'land' successfully on 9/11.

And that after saying that they didn't need to learn how to take off or land in school either. (/scarcasm off)

[SamAdams76]

I guess I was misinformed on that one. I always understood it was 24 hours, myself. So you can be an airplane pilot and still have beers the night before? Damn! I could have been an airplane pilot after all! That's okay, I would have gotten claustrophobia sitting in those cockpits anyhow.