Homebuilder charged with Endangered Species Act violations

KCAL ^

[chance33_98]

Homebuilder charged with Endangered Species Act violations

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) A developer who wanted to build 3,200 homes in Pittsburg has been charged with violating the Endangered Species Act.

West Coast Homebuilders Inc. of Concord was charged in U.S. District Court in Oakland Friday with two counts of violating the act after authorities said a department of Fish and Game warden found a dead California red-legged frog on the site last year.

Prosecutors say Albert Seeno Jr. owner of the company ordered his workers to fill in ponds that were home to the endangered frog.

The frog is believed to be the one Mark Twain made famous in his short story ``The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County.'' It was put on the endangered species list in 1996, and has disappeared from nearly three-quarters of its natural range.

The company could be placed on five years' probation and fined if convicted of violating the act. The company is expected to plead July 19.

Seeno's attorney Bill Goodman declined to comment on the case Saturday.

[Grampa Dave]

If you just knew which Fish and Game person to question with a lie detector, your question would be answered very quickly.

It is becoming next to impossible to get Kali Fish and Game to do their real jobs that our fishing licenses pay for. That is going out and monitoring the streams and hunting areas to catch poachers.

They are far too busy doing things like throwing dead Red legged Frogs on construction property than to really protect the fish and game.

Or they are at the ocean harbors doing an anal inspection on the professional salmon fishers to make sure that they don't have a so called endangered Silver Salmon on board.

I will post a real life horror story re Fish and Game and Red Legged Frogs that weren't there on another thread.

[A Navy Vet]

Grandson: "Grampa goodieD, Gramma goodieD told me there once were Red-Legged Frogs on this land. What happend to 'em?"

Grandpa goodieD, "Well, when we were young, we wanted to play tennis in our own back yard, and . . ."

Grandson: "Okay Grandpa, can I go out and play on the tennis court?"

[leadpenny]

You've changed the hypothetical. I said you knew beyond a doubt.

[Grampa Dave]

Real life Red Legged Frog, Kali Fish and Game and the Federal Wildlife Nazis event this year. Please don't read if you have coffee or other liquids in your mouth or a hammer like object near your computer monitor.

A fellow that I know owns some rental commericial property by an airport in N. Kali. All the permits were done at considerable costs and time before construction was started. Fish and Game people visited the area before, during and after construction. He and other investors built an office complex, warehouse complex and clean industry complex last year during a drought year on this approved site.

What they didn't know, was that a seasonal creek could flood over during both high rain and high tide times. This flooded the parking lots and access roads.

They wanted to put in seasonal color sandbags along the creek bed to prevent the flooding. The fish and game nazis said that a survey would have to be done to see if red legged frogs lived in this seasonal creek area.

The property owners hired an enviral group recommended by the eco game nazis. After an expensive survey this enviral group said that were no red legged frogs nor any evidence that they had ever lived in this area.

Flash forward to a closed door meeting with the enviral game nazis (state/fed). The land owners were told that even though no Red Legged Frogs lived on that property or left evidence in the past. They could not put out the seasonal sandbags.

The reason, careful now, remove all hammer like objects from around your monitor and make sure nothing is in your mouth besides your tongue and teeth:

They could not seasonally sandbag as this was an area that the red legged frog might like to inhabit now or in the future! Anyone caught sandbagging the creek even in a flood would be arrested, fined and charged with serious violations of the EPA act to protect critters real or not.

[SauronOfMordor]

By filling in your pond you know, beyond a doubt, the frogs will be gone forever. Question: Would you fill in the pond anyway?

I would be sure to quietly eliminate the frogs regardless, and double-check to make sure they were exterminated from my property.

The alternative would be to risk having my property declared a frog preserve under the Endangered Species Act, thus eliminating its market value after having sunk my money into it.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Sacred frog!

Must not despoil the Land of the Sacred Frog!

Why do I get the feeling our society has subtly lapsed into Greek-style paganism? The EPA (Oracle of Sacred Critters) has spoken: Must not build there.

[Carry_Okie]

From the same source:

What has it cost us to save the California Condor? This is a case where a hugely expensive, multi-decade preservation program had failed completely before a controversial captive-breeding program was begun. How many dollars were lost in resource and land use value during the preservation? How much was spent in breeding studies, behavior analyses, incubation, training, release monitoring, and then… what are the fines going to be for the homeowners who have the insensitivity to allow the condors to steal the nachos off the back deck? All that preservation with nearly total failure and the birds apparently enjoy the shelter of suburban housing developments. Would it have been cheaper and more successful to have a few houses funding a heterogeneous approach to increasing condor populations? Did we really have to preserve their habitat or would suburban condor overpopulation have driven young birds with better genetic diversity back into the wild? Is there a benefit to having semi-domesticated transitional, suburban condor population reservoirs? Would there be people on the margins of the wild areas prepared to make a buck assuring their success? Do we really know? Is the information, of how much time and effort that went into that restoration and reintroduction, valuable as an estimate of the risk associated with the loss of other species?

None of these countervailing questions would come into play with a risk-based pricing system. Jealous landowners would have already invested in a critical range junction at Gorman Pass (in Southern California) for its value as ideal condor habitat. They would demand too high a price for the land for Enron to buy, compared to other locations with steady winds. Under the current system (sorry), Enron had to find out the hard way after years of site exploration and negotiations. A lawsuit stated that their tax-subsidized wind generators threatened to chew more condors into little bits. Under InsCert, there would have been no lawsuit, no bad PR, no political hassle, and no wasted energy on the part of Enron.

The benefits of a good management system are found, not in how they solve problems, but in how effortlessly they are prevented.

Emphasis added.

[Dr. Frank fan]

You find out, with absolute certainty, that your pond is the home to the last surviving colony of California Red-Legged Frogs.

You cannot "find out" this with "absolute certainty". You mean, because the gov't says so? How do you know there aren't more such frogs somewhere in some boondocks? You don't.

By filling in your pond you know, beyond a doubt, the frogs will be gone forever.

In fact, all those frogs will be gone forever regardless, in a few years (depending on froggie lifespan). All animals die, didn't you know?

I guess what you are talking about is that not only would these die, but they would have no descendents, or their descendants would die as well. Uh yeah, so? It happens. It has happened to zillions of species and will continue to happen.

Why must every species of critter have descendants forever and ever?

One more thing: If these frogs are such great jumpers, won't they hop away when they hear the bulldozers coming? They're FROGS, for pete's sake, not statues! Just because you pave over their pond doesn't mean they'll SIT THERE, does it?

[gilor]

"authorities said a department of Fish and Game warden found a dead California red-legged frog on the site"

Probably it was crushed by a SUV!!!

BAN all SUV's!!!

[Northpaw]

department of Fish and Game warden

Some of these will end up being found dead on developer's property if this idiocy continues.

[Johnny Crab]

AND then THEY will be listed on the Endangered Socialist List....

[AAABEST]

By filling in your pond you know, beyond a doubt, the frogs will be gone forever. Question: Would you fill in the pond anyway?

Yes, but first I'd spray it with insecticides, pick out the dead carcasses and toss them into your swimming pool for asking this non applicable "hypothetical".

That's how far the eviro-freak facists have pushed us animal and nature loving conservationists.

[RGSpincich]

You find out, with absolute certainty, that your pond is the home to the last surviving colony of California Red-Legged Frogs. By filling in your pond you know, beyond a doubt, the frogs will be gone forever.
Question: Would you fill in the pond anyway?

It is common for the certain "endangered" species to be relocated to a more suitable environment (as determined by Fish and Game in my local). Relocation to controlled environments allow the species to multiply faster and spread out.

The truth is, there are plenty of these frogs, as evidenced by their presence at every new building site. (unless the enviro-wackos are relocating the same frogs from site to site just prior to the EIR s being done) The relocation thing is a compromise that developers agree to just to speed up the building process and to stay out of court.

[leadpenny]

If you disagree with my hypothetical, how can you argue it?

Either you would call in the bulldozers or you wouldn't. I don't believe all those who say they would, would.

[Grampa Dave]

Hey that is good for capitalists and tax payers!

How do you expect an elite enviralist, who is over educated in the wrong things and completely unskilled in the correct things and people skills to make a living if this concept of yours comes into effect:

The benefits of a good management system are found, not in how they solve problems, but in how effortlessly they are prevented.

There is zero future for meddling elite enviros if your system comes into effect. All of the meddling elite enviros would lose their elite paychecks. Do you want to be responsible for so many elite enviros becoming depressed and unemployed street people?

[Grampa Dave]

leadpenney, will you continue to defend the red legged frogs, when we document that they are not endangered?

When in fact they are another EPA bad science nightmare created by the enviral nazis you love over your fellow citizens.

Or will you say back off to the enviral nazis, and let the citizens handle their property as good stewards?

Or will you as most puffed up enviralists ignore the good science and go with the bad science used for rural cleansing of Americans and removal of their property for the red legged frogs, spotted owls, short nosed sucker fish, silver salmon so thick they have to be killed with baseball bats and other lies even if the Red Legged Frogs are not endangered?

This is the real discussion not your enviral trick question. How will you respond when real science shows that the lies of the red legged shortage?

[Carry_Okie]

The benefits of a good management system are found, not in how they solve problems, but in how effortlessly they are prevented. (Forgive my liberties with your post.)

How do you expect an elite enviralist, who is over educated in the wrong things and completely unskilled in the correct things and people skills to make a living if this concept of yours comes into effect?

Under a competitive bidding system in risk offsets one would need to know what the relative value associated with one frog site is versus another. One might be able to improve its performance to make it more competitive. That takes someone who understands frogs.

There is zero future for meddling elite enviros if your system comes into effect.

True, but smart biologists might do very well. Those lawyers should learn to write contracts. Of course, they might have to compete with my daughter because she would be automating the contracts and trades with software.

Heheheh...

All of the meddling elite enviros would lose their elite paychecks.

Not all, only those who aren't worth their paychecks.

Do you want to be responsible for so many elite enviros becoming depressed and unemployed street people?

Hehehehe....