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To: The Raven
If the US Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion -- how does that trickle down to a teacher leading a class in prayer?

That has nothing to do with the way our system works! Get a clue. The constitution says what ever the judges say it says. It has been like that for 199 years.

If the justices say that the constitution says all persons who post on Free Republic with the name RAVEN are to be shot at sunrise tomorrow, don't make any plans for tomorrow afternoon.

I can't believe anyone who has observed the courts could believe that the words on that paper mean what they say to anyone on the court. It is obvious that they do not.

Some people argue that you have to have justices tell you what the words in the written constitution mean. Thus, they say, the judges have to interpret. Some one has to say what the words mean. That is like the liberals covering Hitler in 1935 when he said he was going to kill all the Jews in Germany. They asked what he meant by that. He meant he was going to kill all the Jews. These are the same people who ask what "Congress shall make no law" means. They argue that congress can make a "YES" law since it would not be a "NO" law. Yes we have no bananas or a written constitution in force.

The constitution was designed to be a self evident document. Madison worked long and hard to construct it so the meaning was clear to anyone who could read it. But the Supreme court decided in 1803 that it was not clear and they would have to tell the rest of us what it actually meant.

From that point forward when the words written in the constitution say what the judges want our law to be, they quote the words in the document. When the words written in the constitution do not say what the judges want our law to be, they just rule it says something else and ignore the document.

Changing this nation involves 4 steps.


 1. First elect a president that shares your views.
 2. Elect a senate that shares your views.
 3. Nominate and confirm judges that share your views
 4. When you have a clear majority on the court bring cases 
    before your court to be decided.
That is the way it must be done and in that order.

Trying to make the case that the words in the constitution mean x to the judges is worthless. They know it says and means x, that does not stop them from ruling y.

How many hundred years will judges have to rule as they feel and think while ignoring the clear words in the written constitution, before most of us figure out how the system works?


15 posted on 06/30/2002 6:40:21 AM PDT by Common Tator
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To: Common Tator
What I'm suggesting is what the libs do every day of the week with their "living/breathing Constitution" gobbly gook...... Bring suit. This time with a clear reference to the original Constitution wording and challenge the entire slew of bad "interpretations"

17 posted on 06/30/2002 6:51:59 AM PDT by The Raven
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To: Common Tator
>>The constitution was designed to be a self evident document<<

Written by men who believed the same about the Bible.

You can't really understand their intent for citizen interpretation of the Constitution unless you understand their ideas about the priesthood of all believers and the congregational model of worship.

21 posted on 06/30/2002 7:28:10 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: Common Tator
Lofty goals, but the cultures of most states in the Northeast, West coast, and Northern Midwest are socialistic in outlook.

The original Constitution acknowledged the substantial differences in culture and geography and States were pretty much left alone to develop their separate experiments in democratic republicanism. States which were successful would see their populations and prosperity increase. Others would be forced to change to preserve their tax base.

Now, there's just one generic governing philosophy for an even more diverse and larger collection of states. Western land and water policy is dictated by Eastern urbanites. Southern school curricula is mandated by Yankee Ed.D.'s. Such a system is unworkable and unsustainable.

25 posted on 06/30/2002 7:44:46 AM PDT by SteamshipTime
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To: Common Tator
Changing this nation involves 4 steps.

Your steps ignore the chicken-and-egg/hole-in-the-bucket aspect of this problem.

None of your steps can be implemented unless the public is re-educated on a very deep level, one that changes thier whole social-political philosophy. A philosophy that is seeded and reinforced by the schools and the tyranny-of-conformity aspect.

I believe that this link must be forcefully broken first, it must be a 'young persons' movement, opposite but simular to that of the 60's.

Secondly, the media must be transformed, especially television. An eradication through humiliation of PC thought followed by a resurrection of the principles of liberty and individual responsibility.

We must STOP wallowing in the low-class abandonment of dignity that pervades the popular culture I term as 'pig-worship'. The value-system must be re-inverted, the insistance on upholding decency must be disengaged from the slanderous depictions as fascism and religious tyranny.

People need to see they are being made into the subhuman, into rutting, mindless, careless unprincipled worms. Worms for the cold machine.

The young people sense this, but they cannot make sense of it. To them the world is in a contest to see who is most crass and vulgar, while at the same time all are contending for the righteousness to judge, the license to hate.

It is a war of 'in-your-face' an orgy of disruption, contention, hate and confusion.

It is the 'cutting-edge' of communism: balkinization through radicalization.

67 posted on 06/30/2002 3:18:22 PM PDT by mindprism.com
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