** Is this IDIOT for real ** Agrees with 9th Circuit !!

Lew Rockwell and Brad Edmonds ^ | 28 June 2002 | David C. Osborne

[dheretic]

While I disagree with why it was ruled unconstitutional, I hope the entire pledge is scuttled. There is a very simple reason, the pledge teaches people to be loyal to an abstract America and not its Constitution. Look at this from a broader historical perspective. Pledging loyalty to the nation, or a symbol of the nation, is a sign of nationalism, not patriotism. The nationalist, to paraphrase Orwell cannot see wrong in his country. A patriot can, he can love his country, but hate its government. That is however not the lesson of the pledge. It does not tell each generation to hold the Constitution with great esteem, respect and be willing to defend it. It glorifies America without once mentioning what it is that politically binds us together, the longest standing liberal national constitution in history. It seeks to raise kids to be nationalistic, not patriotic. Want proof? Take a look at the millions upon millions of Americans who in the War on Terrorism increasingly do not believe in the existance of a loyal, non-leftist, constitutionalist opposition to the Bush Administration. Before you criticize me, take a look at FR. How many people have been called practically traitors, not because they said Bin Laden is misunderstood, but because they do not agree with how Bush is fighting this "War on Terrorism?" A lot. If people who do not want the legal weight of the US Constitution and its Bill of Rights to exist only on paper are called traitors for such a "crime," then isn't it time to wonder what kind of country we have become?

[davidosborne]

You are correct in saying that we have NO ESTABLISHED RELIGION.. However the PRINCIPLES that our nation is founded upon surely make reference to the Creator (God), and we should not attempt to build a WALL between the Government and God that was NEVER intended... Our Nation MUST stand on Biblical principles or it will surley FALL, that is a promise from God Himself, Our Founding Fathers certainly understood what they were saying when they said "We have staked our very existence as a NATION, on our ability to uphold the 10 Commandments"

[davidosborne]

One of the most important things I can do as a Christian is to NOT be ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto Salvation, to those who believe, our founding fathers knew this, and while some in Government were NOT and currently are NOT Christians, the very future of OUR Nation hinges on whether or not our Government recognizes God and gives Him His proper place. The future of America lies in the ballance over this issue. We NEED God IN American Politics, if this offends the atheists so be it... I am in no way suggesting the establishment of a national religion/denomination, however we must OPENLY invite/welcome God in our Government and our Schools, failure to do so is telling God that we don't need Him or want Him, and God Help America if He gives us what we ask for...

[dheretic]

Our Nation MUST stand on Biblical principles or it will surley FALL

Does that include Romans 13:1-13:7 which says that there exists no authority on Earth that God hasn't ordained and that you cannot rebel against your government without rebelling against God?

[dheretic]

while some in Government were NOT and currently are NOT Christians, the very future of OUR Nation hinges on whether or not our Government recognizes God and gives Him His proper place. The future of America lies in the ballance over this issue. We NEED God IN American Politics, if this offends the atheists so be it...

It offends me and I'm a Deist. You say we need God in politics, but as a Deist I cannot accept that idea. God has left us to our own devices to live according to the natural law that He established. His universe is perfect and virtually ever religion is a direct attempt to subvert the natural order. God "has no place in politics" because God is not our king, He is our creator. God doesn't want subjects. To paraphrase a line from Conversations with God: "honestly, what do you think you can give Me that I cannot make an infinitely greater quantity of with a mere thought?" If God wanted subjects, the natural law would reflect that, but it doesn't. As Rousseau said, "man is born free and everywhere he is in chains." And religion is a major factor in that.

I am in no way suggesting the establishment of a national religion/denomination, however we must OPENLY invite/welcome God in our Government and our Schools, failure to do so is telling God that we don't need Him or want Him, and God Help America if He gives us what we ask for...

America became great after the Civil War because that was the turning point in which the US began to acknowledge natural law. America cannot be a Christian nation because it is a nation founded on heresy and rebellion. We are not a nation known for subserviance to anyone and trying to make us subserviant to a God that doesn't want subjects in the first place will only continue to damage our national character.

I am a cross between classical liberal and libertarian. I cannot accept the idea that America is a Christian nation when presented with some pretty damning evidence to the contrary. It is literally impossible for us to remain a sovereign nation and be a christian nation. We would have to renounce our constitutions and rejoin Britain to be a "christian nation." According to the Bible we have been in rebellion against God since 1776 and we have no signs of repenting. And it's a good thing. Christianity carried to its natural fundamentalist conclusion is a somewhat cowardly religion. Anyone that follows paul's admonitions would feel morally obligated to not rebel against even the most evil government possible. According to Romans 13:1-7, it would have been a sin for a German patriot to grab a rifle and go out and gun down as many Nazis as he could in defense of the minorities being sent to the concentration camps because that would be an act of rebellion. I cannot believe that a just and wise God would punish such a man or woman at all for rebellion.

[Texasforever]

I am a cross between classical liberal and libertarian. I cannot accept the idea that America is a Christian nation when presented with some pretty damning evidence to the contrary. It is literally impossible for us to remain a sovereign nation and be a christian nation.

Hyperbole. You will find NO references to a "Christian" nation in ANY of the founding documents. You will find NO reference to "Christianity" in any Federal law, building or other institution tied to the government. You find no reference to “Christianity” in the Pledge. What the majority of Americans believe about a Christian nation has no bearing on why the words “under GOD” are considered an acknowledgement of a Christian nation.

[davidosborne]

In accordance with the U.S. Constitution IF our Government becomes tyranical it is our DUTY to abolish/replace it. That is what we did durring the revolution, and that is what we MUST do again if necessary, God is not weak, and God is a Jealous God, Hence the 1st Commandment. We must put on the FULL ARMOR of God, we are in the middle of a SPIRITUAL war, that will not end until the 2nd comming of Christ. You are right, God does not want SUBJECTS... he does want WILLING servants.. God will never force anyone to follow Him, however he does ASK... CHOOSE YOU this DAY WHOM you will serve...

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!

[OldFriend]

The other night I caught about three minutes of Batchelor and Alexander on WABC.......Batchelor made an interesting comment. He said that when the Supreme Court ruled that flag burning was protected speech, it was all over for Michael Dukakis, and he thinks this ruling by the 9th. circuit means it's all over for the democrats in the upcoming election.

Funniest of all is that while the dems in D.C. all rushed to the microphones to slam the decision they forget to let Alan Colmes and assorted other dumocrats, who then went on TV and radio to praise the decision........LOL...........

[backhoe]

I caught about three minutes of Batchelor and Alexander on WABC.......Batchelor made an interesting comment. He said that when the Supreme Court ruled that flag burning was protected speech, it was all over for Michael Dukakis, and he thinks this ruling by the 9th. circuit means it's all over for the democrats in the upcoming election.

We have just been handed three God-given opportunities to hammer the Left in this country until they ring like a cheap bell:

1- the "pledge issue." It went Nuclear-Hot so fast it was unbelievable, and while the Left is moving fast to defuse it, it has done a lot of damage.
2- the "wildfires issue." Every living thing fears wildfire, and it perfectly illustrates years of muddle-headed mismanagement.
3- the "waste, fraud, and abuse issue." The Left is desperately trying to draw attention away by using the "WorldCom" and other corporate abuses and fraud, but the Government is the real heavy hitter in this department. They can't even account for their own ( our! ) money!

[borntodiefree]

In this we agree that the foundation was built on Christian Principles of individual choice, and community protection of those individual choices. I believe your quote is from Daniel Webster, but of course we know that his statement is not completely true because God clearly told us that man was incapable of keeping the 10 commandments.

I would agree that we allow the Christian Principles into the government or it would fail, but that we keep Christianity out of government for one soul purpose. The fact that even the church is so divided in its demonationalism. It is divided on the basis of greed and pride and humanism. If the governments soul purpose is to protect the rights of the individual from all enemies foreign and domestic, it is doing its proper function...giving much else is giving it to much power and the direction of the union is then based on the wims and desires of a certain type of person which will always violate the rights of another group of persons.

[Grampa Dave]

Ravingnutwell.com and the other so called conservative neverwar.coms are the true laughing stock of American Politics.

Ravingnuts hate Lincoln, cheer the South, hate God and generally hate America/Americans and would like to see their buddies the Islamic Terrorists destroy this nation that they hate 24/7/365.

We have these hate America/GWers on this site. If they ever got into power, our life would be worse than living under the Nazis of pre and during WWII.

However, the good reality, is they are a very small % of Americans. I sure that post 9/11 most of their web sites are hurting severely for finances.

I don't read anything posted on this site from these civil war losers. I don't respond to their replies, and this is how they should be handled. They deserve ridicule and shunning!

[OldFriend]

In NY we have bebe Cuomo running for Governor. As the leader of HUD there were billions of dollars disappearing.........there must be a hue and cry as to the waste of our hard earned tax dollars.

[backhoe]

I don't have them handy, but somewhere I have links about all the millions of dollars "lost" at HUD and other agencies- mostly on the clintons' watch, but it's been going on for years. No private business could get away with so many abuses.

[DJ88]

Yawn....I listened to Neal Boortz yesterday on the way to pick up my kids in GA. Boor-ing. "It's the law, folks." Oh, really? Well, uh...Mr. Boortz....then why wasn't it struck down in 1954 when President Eisenhour (Sp? sorry I'm tired) signed it?

I love these Libertarians. He says he's a lawyer. Well, if he was such a good lawyer, why does he have a talk show?

Although..he did make some interesting points. Did you know that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a legal document? I did not know that. Maybe we should ask Congress to MAKE IT ONE. After a while, though, I got tired of his self-righteous attitude and changed the channel.

If you get him, Glenn Beck is excellent...very, very funny and always a good show. Well, most of the time. ;-)

[OldFriend]

We just got Glenn Beck in the NY metropolitan area, and for the most part he is a joy to hear. He does have some quirky segments that are totally inane......but overall, he's good!

[nicmarlo]

My e-mail, off this a.m.:

Mr. Edmonds:

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you. You got it wrong, as did the 9th Circuit. The Bill of Rights states:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Saying "under God" is promoting NO religion.

re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Obviously, what our Founding Fathers had in mind was to prevent the institutionalization of a particular belief system in our Country. Historical documents confirm this fear. Saying "under God" is also, obviously, not "institutionalizing" any religion. The Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Hindus, all believe in a Higher Power/Creator/Deity, whether it be conceived as monotheistic or polytheistic.....they all believe in "God," according to their understandings or definition of "God."

What the Court did, and apparently what you think is constitutional, is to ABRIDGE the free exercise of speech concerning a belief in God and PROHIBIT the freedom of speech guaranteed to all Americans under the Constitution.

Both are violations of Amendment I to the Bill of Rights. You are wrong; so are both the activist judges.

[DJ88]

He's from Tampa...*smiles*...when W. won the case in USSC, he held a 'W1' rally...I took my two boys to it...they were 6 and 4. Big FAT mistake. Don't get me wrong, the rally was great, it was just putting the boys on the LIVE RADIO that wasn't so great. Glenn Beck was making his way around the crowd and happened upon my two sons. He asked them if they would like to be on the "radio". They said "Sure!" I just kinda figured he would ask them their names, where they were from, etc. WRONG. This is how the conversation went:

GB: So, how old are you boys?
Child #1:Well, I'm 6 and my little brother, he's 4.
GB:"Oh, I see. So, why are you here today?" (this is when I began sweating)..
Child #2:"Cause my Mom said we hadded to come." (drip drip drip)
GB:"Oh, is that right?? Where's your Mom?" (I was hiding)...
Child #1:"She's right here, you idiot." (Um..this was a joke...he (GB) would call everyone an idiot for some reason, I don't know why). Of course after Child #1 said this, the crowd roared..I shrunk.
GB:"Oh, so I see you listen to my show alot, is that right? Good for you. So, what do you think about George W. Bush? Do you think he should be President?"
:Child #1:"Yeah. My Mom said so." (dripdripdripdripdrip)
Child #2: "All my Mom talks about is George W. Bush this, and George W. Bush that, George, George, George..." (can you imagine how stupid I am feeling at this point in my life?)
GB:"Oh, is that right? So..what does your Mom think of Al Gore then? She must not like him." (This is when I was for sure wishing I had a shovel.)

Child #1:"MY Mom says that Al Gore is a liar, and he's a tree. She hates him. And she doesn't like Bill Clinton either. She said he should be in jail." (hint: don't ever discuss politics when your kids are around....they retain things)

Okay, so at this point, GB is laughing his head off, and so is the crowd. I figured, "OK, this isn't so bad. At least he didn't ask them who they were." Oops. Two seconds later, my youngest child (who would be the 4-year old) says,
"Hey! Doncha wanna know our names? I'm ________ _________ and I live in Lakeland, FL and my Dad works for _______ __________." AHHHHHH!!!!!

You see....almost all of my husband's customers liked Bill Clinton and Al Gore. Mr. DJ was not pleased when I got home. Heehee.

[Publius6961]

To initiate an intelligent debate, forgetting about the court. What is correct or incorrect about his statements. I'd like to get past the emotion, and have an intelligent discussion before I come to a conclusion.

What emotion?
What conclusion?

Once upon a time some things were so self evident and common sense that it was a matter of ridicule to question them.
Human beings haven't changed that much, but the coddling of mental deficients has become the end in itself.

The best that can be said for those who would parse ever word and comma in the Constitution is that they need to get a life.
The phrase "when you see the first bit of a sunrise, the sun isn't really there yet", could amuse these losers without a life indefinitely.

The laws are a means to an end and the social contract is what is being addressed: rights and obligations.
Fall into the liberal trap of rights without obligations and rule by the incompetent is the inevitable result.

It's the Law of Social Entropy.

[Publius6961]

One of the most important things I can do as a Christian is to NOT be ashamed of the Gospel...

Funny, that is exactly how the perverts feel about their religion... deviancy.
Is it not possible to see the similarity and the effect on others that you both have?

Yeah... but it's so important to me!
I'll put up my faith against anyonyone else's; I just will not try to shove it down anyone's throat. It's the "wrestling with a pig metaphor" that can be repeated endlessly...