Posted on 06/27/2002 6:52:53 AM PDT by Tired of Taxes
You're right, I have no clue what your opinions are on those topics because you still haven't told me. And, yes, they do apply to this discussion because the arguments used are the same, as in: Darwin's evolutionary theory taught in public schools violates a person's religious rights. So, along the same lines, leading a public school student in a pledge to a nation "under God" is also a violation.
Again with what it's "supposed to do" from the anti-pledge crowd. Here's what it "does" do--it restrains Congress on that matter, no one else. Just Congress.
Nice try. But the Pledge is "officially recognized" by Congress.
you're not pledging allegiance to a nation under God, you're pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the the republic for which it (the flag) stands. The rest of the words modify "republic".
That was a weak argument. ;)
The first, shorter definition was from a Webster's that I probably bought in the early 90's. But the second, longer definition was from a 1967 American College Dictionary. The entire definition reads:
1. the quest for the values of the ideal life, involving three phases: the ideal, the practices for attaining the values of the ideal, and the theology or world view relating the quest to the environing universe.
2. a particular system in which the quest of the ideal life has been embodied: the Christian religion.
3. recognition on the part of man of a controlling superhuman power entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship.
4. the feeling or spiritual attitude of those recognizing such a power...
There's a 5, 6, 7, and 8, too, but I can't type all day. :)
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
Your definitions, such as the one above, seem to say the same. The wording is only slightly different.
I am not at all impressed with any of the arguments in favor of not allowing the Pledge of Allegiance in our school system and at public gatherings.
To those who are living here and (either knowingly or unknowingly) working to destroy our institutions and our culture, I have this to say:
This is America! Love it or leave!
Having said that, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is an important part of instilling patriotism and developing a sense of pride in our country. God knows America needs more Patriots, needs more people who are proud to be American, who will stand up for America.
Like it or not, America is man's last best hope for a peaceful world. The myth that other societies are equally as "valuable" as America, or have the same intrinsic "worth" is just that, a myth, a lie.
Simply stated, there is no finer country in the history of the world as good to live in as America. America is not perfect, and may well never be, but America is a damn sight better place to live than any other country on the face of this earth.
When our Founding Fathers set about creating this Republic, they knew the form of government they were setting up would fly in the face of all of man's recorded history.
In short, the Founders' America made a lie of the "Divine Right of Kings!" That is why we had (and still) have so many enemies in the world.
The government they set up established "The People" as supreme -- an in-your-face repudiation of The Divine Right of Kings form of government that had held sway for thousands of years prior to America's Founding.
This concept is important for all of us to understand as we go about Taking America Back:
The concept of government in America is an experiment which absolutely lays waste to a body of thought that governed the relationship of a people and their government since the dawn of man. America is the only country in the world that has as its organizing principle that man's unalienable rights originate with God and are then loaned to government (The Rule of Law).
Implicit in that concept is that anytime We the People decide to take something back from government, we not only can, we are obliged to do so.
Every other country in the world holds that (such) rights (as men have) originate with the government and can be extended or retracted as government pleases (Divine Right of Kings).
Trying to take a right from a King will get you killed.
That is the essential difference between America and every other country in the world. That is why America is at risk.
Conceptualize this thought: If the experiment that is America fails, the world will revert to the Divine Right of Kings. Do we want that to happen?
There are many, many people who do not want this experiment called America to succeed. They are our enemies, and they live among us.
We Patriots must expose and oppose them with every fiber of our being.
I would cite a document you probably would have rewritten to reflect your Soviet mindset, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE. I guess you'll say how that needs to be modified. Much more reference to God there than in the pledge...
This Atheist Jihad reflects the same moral depravity of bin Laden et al... America's resources aren't infinite, devoting court time to depraved fools that would take God out of the pledge is extremely wasteful. The efforts to destroy the pledge of allegience are a shameful and a disgraceful attack on our country and way of life.
Oh, very well. I don't care about any of it. I truly don't. I had to learn evolution in school, didn't hurt me physically or damage my little psyche in any way. Had sex education in school, and it didn't make me promiscuous. Listened to a two-hour presentation on birth control and abortion, in vivid detail with directions to the clinic, from a guest speaker from Planned Parenthood in health class, and somehow made it to the age of 44 without ever having a reason to seek an abortion. I had homosexual friends in high school, in fact I had three homesexual teachers in high school (everyone seemed to know except the other teachers) and somehow I never became a lesbian or a faghag as a result of that association. I was exposed to nutty leftist ideas in school for years and still voted for Ronald Reagan in the Republican primary in '76, when I turned eighteen. Furthermore, my parents decided to stop taking us kiddies to church altogether around the time I started elementary school, but those tender years spent reciting the pledge PLUS listening to a nondenominational prayer with my head bowed, every single morning, did not make me religious during my school years or for decades afterward. Neither did it make me feel oppressed or excluded or compelled to worship. I was baptized last year, for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Pledge of Allegiance.
Indoctrination only works on weak people. I repeat, I don't care what crazy curriculum they choose to teach in the government-run schools, because they're going to get their heads handed to them in short order when vouchers catch on. I care more about what they don't teach anymore, namely that words and numbers have concrete meanings. We wouldn't be sitting here arguing whether acknowledge = establish if there were any objective standards left in the schools or the courts.
Happy now? Consistent enough for ya?
And, yes, they do apply to this discussion because the arguments used are the same, as in: Darwin's evolutionary theory taught in public schools violates a person's religious rights. So, along the same lines, leading a public school student in a pledge to a nation "under God" is also a violation.
Good Lord. Not everything I find offensive is a violation of my rights, is it? Teaching a theory is not a violation of your rights. It would only be a problem if you decided on a career in a field of science in which Darwin was absolutely unavoidable, and then you'd have to examine your beliefs vs your career and make some choices, wouldn't you? Offering sex ed is not a violation of your rights. Mandatory participation in sex ed would be, but no one is forced to participate; parents can opt their children out. Just like children can opt out of saying the pledge (as happened in this case, the daughter was never forced to say the Pledge; her father didn't want ANYONE to say it). I have all kinds of sympathy for parents whose children are being taught things contrary to their religion or morality. My sympathy dries up totally when they enlist a federal court to invent a right to NOT hear or see that which offends them, and the court goes along with them to the point of outright forbidding an activity that most people find benign at worst.
Combine the with what I consider to be a dishonest, agenda-driven interpretation of the simple words of the first amendment, and you bet I'm mad. Just not for the reasons you ASSUMED. The judiciary is officially out of control, and thanks to the deliberate dumbing-down of the populace, a large chunk of the country is too stupid to understand why this decision is *THE* perfect example of why.
Nice try. But the Pledge is "officially recognized" by Congress.
The fact is your ARE pledging to the flag and not the nation, which some religious groups have found offensive from the beginning, and they were free to opt out of participation.
An act of Congress inserted the words "under God". But it still doesn't constitute an establishment of religion. If you want to construe it as an endorsement of religion, you could do that, but since it doesn't endorse a particular religion I don't see it as a violation of the First either.
Now before you scream "Yes it does, JudeoChristian monotheism!" at me, I have to tell you I will only discuss that subject with a real live devout Hindu or a follower of another non-Western religion that worships multiple dieties. Be sure to ping me if you find one.
My opinion is the Congress could pass a resolution tomorrow endorsing the hell out of "religion"--"Be it resolved that we think religion is a GOOD thing overall for society in general and people in particular" and it wouldn't violate the First Amendment at all. No religion was established. I think maybe they should do just that, and see if it stand up in front of the court that has the most sitting judges still able to understand simple English.
Was I right about your dictionary?
The key word here is not the recognition part, but the "entitled to obedience, reverance, and worship" part, none of which can be implied, enforced, or suggested by the two words "under God". Recognition alone doesn't make religion.
For instance, I tended to recognize, of a Sunday when I was a child, that a heck of a lot of the neighbors were heading to church and worshipping God. It just didn't have much of an influence on my family's actions. Zero, actually.
Wrong see the following especialy the bolded part
religion (rî-lîj´en) noun
Abbr. rel., relig.
1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
- idiom.
get religion Informal.
To accept a higher power as a controlling influence for the good in one's life.
[Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religio, religion-, perhaps from religâre, to tie fast. See rely.]
Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
I'm beginning to think the Pledge of Allegiance means more to me, an atheist, than to the theists in America. If I'm pledging an allegiance to the flag and to the Republic, a nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice, I am taking those words very seriously. I want my children to take those words very seriously. I can't take them as seriously with a god-belief included. On the other hand, what I'm hearing from believers is that "they're just words."
Well, thanks again for your comments.
LOL. I thought we were done on Friday. :D
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