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To: RonF
She had to listen to the government both organize religious speech, and provide a forum for it. Which the government can't do.

With due respect, the Establishment Clause does not mention "religious speech". It does refer to an "establishment of religion", which I believe at that time referred primarily to an ecclesiastical establishment of a national Christian denomination, as evidenced by Madison's first draft of the Amendment, and by Blackstone's interchangeable use of the terms "national church," "our present establishment," and "the national religion".

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prevented] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline or practices. Clearly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government. It must then rest with the States.

THOMAS JEFFERSON, JEFFERSON'S WRITINGS (1905).

In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercise suited to it, but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of state and church authorities. . .

Thomas Jefferson, Second Inaugural Address (1805)

"The germ of dissolution of our federal government is in . . . the federal judiciary; an irresponsible body (for impeachment is merely a scare-crow) working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States." Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Mr. Hammond, 1821.

Cordially,


1,273 posted on 06/26/2002 10:56:46 PM PDT by Diamond
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To: Diamond
You state, in support of the thesis that for the state to require teachers to lead the recitation of the PoA in the public schools is not unconstitutional:

"With due respect, the Establishment Clause does not mention "religious speech". It does refer to an "establishment of religion", which I believe at that time referred primarily to an ecclesiastical establishment of a national Christian denomination, ...."

You then quote Thomas Jefferson, as saying:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted [prevented] by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline or practices. Clearly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the general government. It must then rest with the States. "

Isn't requiring a teacher to lead the PoA with the words "under God" intermeddling with religious institutions, doctrines, disciplines, or practices? It's not a religious exercise? Looks like one to me.

I'm also finding it interesting that many people seem to think that the several States are, under the Constitution, free to establish a State Church. Do you really think it's a good thing, and constitutional, for a State to establish a Church? To require every citizen of a State to attend (for example) Roman Catholic Mass every Sunday morning on pain of fines or imprisonment? To support their clergy with your tax money? Think about that....
1,295 posted on 06/27/2002 7:06:32 AM PDT by RonF
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