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9TH CIRCUIT COURT: PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL
Fox News ^

Posted on 06/26/2002 11:25:21 AM PDT by Recovering_Democrat

UNBELIEVABLE. BREAKING ON FOX: SF APPEALS COURT SAYS PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE ENDORSES RELIGION, AND IS THEREBY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.


TOPICS: Announcements; Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Alaska; US: Arizona; US: California; US: Hawaii; US: Idaho; US: Montana; US: Nevada; US: Oregon; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: 9thcircuitcourt; michaeldobbs; pledgeofallegiance; unconstitutional
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To: watchin
Nations that have rejected God as the foundation for human rights have historically - sucked.

Many governments that favored state-sponsored religion have historically sucked too. Read about how the people of early Massachusetts persecuted religious dissenters (whipping, branding, jailing). Read about the massacres and burnings at the stake in Europe during the Reformation.

One of the beauties of America is that it protects the views of minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

1,121 posted on 06/26/2002 4:09:02 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Viva Le Dissention
Government has no place in a public school?

What planet are you from?

Must be anarchistic!

1,122 posted on 06/26/2002 4:09:05 PM PDT by bonesmccoy
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To: Dimensio
Well, that's those people for whom not teaching or endorsing their particular religion is tantamount to teaching or endorsing atheism. So as a teacher or as an other official of the state you don't have to state that "religion is bunk" or that there is no god and atheism is the more rational position - no, it's enough to not mention God, or Jesus, the Bible, etc. in order to teach/endorse atheism. That means if you don't mention God at least once during math or biology class you have forced atheism on the poor children and now they're faith in God is severely shaken.

But well, to make it short, I don't understand these people either.

1,123 posted on 06/26/2002 4:09:35 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: Hemlock
I find it ironic that Newdow, when asked on Fox News whether he feared for his safety, said he was "praying." He immediately caught his error and said he was "sorry."

I happen to be watching Fox as I type this.
I really, really hope they replay it...the bastard!

1,124 posted on 06/26/2002 4:09:45 PM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: On Alert
While I respect your point of view. I disagree. If it were just about favoring the majority then, assuming the minority care, why dont we just add an amendment to include all other religions?
To the Pledge? I doubt you can. There's agnostics, there's atheists, and there are probably people who feel it profanes God's name to use it in a secular manner.

And why bother? It was fine the way it was. Leave the Pledge as it was meant to be, and set aside the moment of silence for students to use as they will.

-Eric

1,125 posted on 06/26/2002 4:10:09 PM PDT by E Rocc
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To: Recovering_Democrat
NUTS!!!!!!
1,126 posted on 06/26/2002 4:10:37 PM PDT by goldstategop
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To: E Rocc
You forget. For some people (a lot of people, judging from the reaction) not mentioning god is exactly the same as outright stating "there is no god". As such, by removing "under god" from the pledge it instantly implies that the pledge is declaring that there exist no gods at all.

I don't understand that logic, but there it is.
1,127 posted on 06/26/2002 4:11:38 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Tired of Taxes
If a teacher were leading a classroom in the recital of an anti-religious pledge - that is, if the pledge recited "one nation, without a god", for example - then you would have a point.

An interesting point... I hope no Left-leaning teachers read it and get some ideas. =^/

Furthermore, this pledge is NOT just a pledge to the flag and to the republic, as you assert, but also, as it currently stands, to an unknown entity that not everyone believes exists, nor does every parent want their children indoctrinated in such a belief.

That is not correct. The pledge is "to the flag", and "to the Republic". The four qualifiers that come after that ("one nation", "under God", "indivisible", and "with Liberty and Justice for all") all describe the Republic, and are not more ideas that are being given an oath of support. One would think that the atheists could simply stand mute for those two words if they believe that this nations is not/cannot be "under God", but we don't live in a society that can rely on mature behavior or decent parental advice from adults, unfortunately. If the pledge is a TOTAL affront to them, let them remove their kids from the public schools just as the religious Right families do due to the influx of non-Christian and anti-Christian ideas.

Your comments are indicative of someone who does not want government to be limited or smaller. Rather, they are indicative of one who would like a big government that promotes his/her own personal beliefs and indoctrinates our children in them. And that is socialist AND anti-American.

This reminds me of a GREAT thread from almost two years ago that discussed the double-edged sword of mandating a pledge to Freedom. It's a fine philosophical line, and an important one.

1,128 posted on 06/26/2002 4:12:15 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Did George Washington pledge allegiance to the Flag?

Maybe Fathers of countries are too busy pledging their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to be bothered overmuch by flags.

Perhaps we should contemplate the fact that more American children know the words to the "Pledge of Allegiance" than know the name of the Father of our Country.

People who are too attached to pledges and flags are very often not enough attached to human liberty. Nor, I might add, to the God named Jesus......

1,129 posted on 06/26/2002 4:13:12 PM PDT by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: RonF
Why do you need vouchers to send your kid to whatever school you want? Why can't you do that now?

What vouchers do is make ME fund a school that's NOT ACCOUNTABLE to ME (I can't vote for it's school board, etc.).

OK, fine. I'll go with your opinion--IF I can get back every damned cent that my local property taxes, state income taxes, and Federal income taxes contribute toward the public school system. Every single solitary "In God We Trust" penny. Then I can take that money and put it into a school setting that I can control, either homeschooling or a private school.

But as long as I have to fund the government indoctrination system, upon pain of fines or jail time for not paying, then I'm not free to send my child wherever I want them to learn.

}:-)4

1,130 posted on 06/26/2002 4:14:11 PM PDT by Moose4
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To: BMCDA
But well, to make it short, I don't understand these people either.

I have a theory, but understand that it is currently purely speculative and it would require extensive research and observation to give it credence:

Those people are stupid.
1,131 posted on 06/26/2002 4:14:12 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: College Repub
Or Jewish!!! We believe in G-d too!!! Hell, even the Muslims believe in someone they *think* is G-d. This ruling seems to benefit only the atheists...

Thank you, I stand corrected!

1,132 posted on 06/26/2002 4:19:33 PM PDT by WellsFargo94
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To: Miss Marple
From the preamble of the Constitution of the State of South Carolina:

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the preservation and perpetuation of the same.

}:-)4

1,133 posted on 06/26/2002 4:19:52 PM PDT by Moose4
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To: mlo
Freedom of worship is the point. What if you worship Krishna? Or noone?

Then frickin' substitute your "God". Quit worrying about MY God, unless you want to convert.

1,134 posted on 06/26/2002 4:22:15 PM PDT by WellsFargo94
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To: E Rocc
Did this mean that they had renounced Christianity? No. Just its role in government

Even this is a gross overstatement. The emphasis was in not allowing a church to enforce sectarian edicts. Even those who were Deists would not and did not take the stand that Christianity had no place in government.

1,135 posted on 06/26/2002 4:22:18 PM PDT by lepton
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To: Dimensio
I'm trying to understand the mentality of people who cannot comprehend the difference between saying "there are no gods" and simply not saying anything at all regarding gods. I'm not sure if it is a genuine comprehension problem or an act of deliberate dishonesty




Arthur Koestler once shed a little light on incomprehensable devotion:


The continuous disasters of man's history are mainly due to his excessive capacity and urge to become identified with a tribe, nation, church or cause, and to espouse its credo uncritically and enthusiastically, even if its tenets are contrary to reason, devoid of self-interest and detrimental to the claims of self-preservation.
We are thus driven to the unfashionable conclusion that the trouble with our species is not an excess of aggression, but an excess capacity for fanatical devotion.

1,136 posted on 06/26/2002 4:22:51 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: not-alone
Byrd is on the floor of the Senate about ready to burst a gasket ...He is reminding every one of the great American heroes Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson

Pretty funny for a senator from the half of Virginia that didn't secede. :)

Hey, I'm a Southron, I'm all for putting the "under God" back in and taking the "indivisible" out...but when push comes to shove, we've got to stop these judicial idiots in the 9th Circuit. Even if it means leaving the "indivisible" in there! :)

Now, I'm just going to sit back and watch all the Democrats spin this, watch them allllll be SO horribly disturbed, and watch them all line up behind useless symbolic resolutions to overturn the ruling--which they can't do. And then, they'll keep blocking Bush's judicial nominees so liberal Constitutional "interpretation" can continue unabated!

Don't be fooled, America! Don't watch what they say, watch what they do!

}:-)4

1,137 posted on 06/26/2002 4:24:07 PM PDT by Moose4
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To: WellsFargo94
Then frickin' substitute your "God". Quit worrying about MY God, unless you want to convert.

That's an irrational statement. How can I substitute my god in what the teacher says?

1,138 posted on 06/26/2002 4:24:45 PM PDT by mlo
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To: Recovering_Democrat
I just saw a bunch of congresscritters on the steps of the capitol pledging allegience. Let's put some fire under them to do something concrete like impeach these judges. Even Tom Dashcle condemns this ruling. Let's make the democrats choose between their ACLU buddies and defending the flat. This is a good issue for the GOP. Call for impeachment now.
1,139 posted on 06/26/2002 4:24:50 PM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: Moose4; All
I'm looking for a quote by one of the founding fathers, something to the effect of our country being a democracy and that this type of gov't can never succeed without God.

thanks

1,140 posted on 06/26/2002 4:25:01 PM PDT by tutstar
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