What s Wrong With a Cross at the WTC?

FoxNews ^ | July 19 2002 | Hannity & Colmes

[steve-b]

Well, yes, and I think that Bill Clinton should apologize to the nation. A statement of personal preference doesn't carry much weight in the real world.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Who cares if Hitler killed 10 million, we will all die and disappear anyway...

I'm trying to figure out just what you are attempting to argue here. Are you suggesting that you think that it is "better" to believe in a god and an afterlife?

Don't strain yourself too much, I'll go ahead and reveal this hidden message.

Atheist worldview
Hitler kills 10 million people. The people who died just cease to be. All he has done is kill 10 million people that would have died anyway at some point. There is no judgement beyond this life for his actions and no possibility of continuation of life for them. Thus, all he has done is speed up the inevitable.

Christian worldview
Hitler kills 10 million people. The people who die must now be judged on whether they will spend eternity with God or eternal suffering for their lack of acceptance of Christ's sacrifice. Hitler will be judged based upon his actions and those he killed will be judged also. He has killed people who might have heard the Gospel of Christ later in their lives and come to salvation. Thus, he has condemned by his hand those people to spend eternity seperated from God.

Who cares in the first case, there is no true ramifications for people who die if you don't believe in an existance past this one. So they stop existing. So will everyone eventually. So what. This life is worthless in the long run, so who cares how it plays out.

In the second case, there are eternal consequences. Those who die will continue on based upon their own beliefs and anyone who murders has taken a life given by God and has potentially put them in danger of never having heard the Gospel and having the opportunity to spend eternity with God.

A serious order of magnitude in difference. In one case, Pac Man is killed by Inky, in the other case, someone is placed into eternity. Now why is it morally imperative that we are convinced that we are a Pac Man game, and why is it insulting and anger inducing to say that our actions have eternal consequences?

[Dimensio]

You trivialize life and you apparently cannot conceive that life might have meaning without an afterlife or "eternal consequences". That does not mean that it is impossible for someone without a belief in "eternal consequences" to find Hitler's actions undesirable or to find a society based in Hitler's philisophy undesirable.

You've basically stated that life itself does not matter, all that matters is what happens after life and because atheists typically don't believe in an afterlife, then their worldview is one in which nothing at all matters.

I personally think that there is something to actually trying to life this current life to the fullest and in trying to help others do the same. After all, if there isn't an afterlife then this is all we have -- strive to make the most of it.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

I personally think that there is something to actually trying to life this current life to the fullest and in trying to help others do the same.

Why? To what end? Please enlighten me in why a consciousness that will cease to exists in a matter of decades should care about what it does for other consciousnesses that will cease to exist in a matter of decades.

[Dimensio]

Please enlighten me in why a consciousness that will cease to exists in a matter of decades should care about what it does for other consciousnesses that will cease to exist in a matter of decades.

Why not?

[ZULU]

What's wrong with a cross at the world trade center?

Well, it might aggrevate non-Christian Americans, like, er say, Muslims!

As for Atheists, they have marginalized themselves by their beliefs.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Exactly.

If I put an ice cube on the front porch and watch it melt do I do an immoral thing?

If not, why not?

If I put an ice cube on the front porch and turn a hair dryer on it to make it melt faster, do I do an immoral thing?

If not, why not?

And if I put an ice cube on the front porch and try to shade it from the sun, is that moral action on my part?

If not, why not?

What is the difference in my actions? How does any of the three actions stop the melting of the ice cube, and is there even a point to preventing the ice cube from melting? How is doing something to slow down the inevitable moral when there are no consequences? Like wise, how is speeding up the melting of the ice cube immoral when there are no consequences?

After the ice cube is gone, there is no more ice cube. Likewise, an atheist would argue, when a human life is expired, there is no more human nor life. So what is the point of doing good if there is no quantifiable or qualifiable differences in the end result?

So be the first atheist to answer this question for me. To what end do any of our actions serve?

[Rate_Determining_Step]

This kind of dribble is exactly how a flame starts...

> How can you hate something that you don't believe exists? Why can a symbol that you believe have no merit cause you to be angry?

Easy dude. What if the Greenpeace symbol ruled the world instead of the cross? If you're like me, you knot up every time you see the Greenpeace peace (read: "peice") symbol. Do you believe in the shara-lara-flower-in-your-hair mandate of whatever twaddle the Ecos spout? Well, according to your logic, just cause you reject their worldview, you shouldn't be bothered by any displays or fusion with government that they have.

That being said, I still don't get bent about the cross. But I can understand how those who that don't worship could get upset. Evidently, you can't. More compassion for you! Back to Compassion Camp!

> The Cross of Jesus Christ is an insult to their very soul as they can't stand to see a Truth exhibited when their whole lives are Lies. Have you ever seen a happy Atheist? No, the human soul hungers for knowledge of God and Atheists have just stubbornly refused to keep searching and it makes them miserable. To see a Cross makes them realize that the clues for the search are all around them and it makes them angry.

[human@reality human]$ Pie-hole < blow $_hot_air

Christ preached forgiveness, gentleness, holiness. Atheists thrive on vengence, abrasiveness, and secularlism. No wonder they are angry when they see a Cross, it tears their lives apart.

I feel a smite coming on...

[Dimensio]

Well, what's your incentive to make the ice cube melt faster or slower? Why would you want to have the ice cube hanging around any longer? What's more, if you try to make the ice cube melt faster, does the ice cube have friends and loved ones who don't want the ice cube to melt so quickly and might try to intervene? What's the point of doing "good"? What is the good of prolonging life? Well, I have an interest in prolonging my own life because there are things in life that I can enjoy. Once my life ends, I won't have anything to enjoy. While eventually I'm going to reach a state where that happens no matter what I do, I figure that since I have a relatively short and finite time in which I can enjoy things and a relatively long, if not infinite, time in which I cannot enjoy -- or experience -- anything then I might as well try to make the most of the time where I can enjoy things and strive to keep that time going as long as possible. While I have no way of knowing whether or not the alternative is any better or worse, once I hit the alternative there won't be any going back. Might as well at least try to squeeze out some fun in life while I still have it.

I have a vested interest in the comfort and continued existence of friends and loved ones. I enjoy their company, their continued presence is a source of happiness for myself. As such, I have an incentive to look out for their well being as well.

Even if I were so selfish as to not care for the feelings of anyone except myself -- much less total strangers -- I would still have an incentive to at least not try and bring their lives to a premature end. The people whom I may try to kill likely have friends and loved ones who feel the same way about the would-be victim as I do my own friends and loved ones. They may make an effort to stop me should I attempt harm, or they may seek vengance should I succeed in carrying out some murderous plan. If I wish to continue living and to continue to enjoy things while living then I have an incentive not to deliberately interfere with the enjoyment of others.

In my case I haven't had any very strong desire to cause harm to another (unless I'm driving and some $%#& cuts me off). As such, the above "incentives" are something of a moot point for me, I don't need fear of retribution to keep me from doing something that I don't want to do anyway.

Why should I go out of my way to help total strangers? Well, why not? What if I want to help strangers, what if that somehow gives me "enjoyment"? The source of satisfaction could be the gratitude or simply an emotional response to helping others shaped through societal conditioning. In either case, there can exist incentive to help others based on something other than a big push for the afterlife, either for my sake or theirs.

To what end do our actions serve? Well, in the long run they probably don't serve anything. In a few million years the sun will go nova and the Earth will be incinerated. Chances are that nothing I do now will have any impact on human civilization -- if it still exists -- at that moment, whether humanity has found a new home or if they are simply vapourized into oblivion. In the short term, I will help others -- both friends and strangers -- because I want to. If this life is all that we have, then I feel that while I'm certainly under no obligation, I might as well work to help people get a little bit more out of it.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

There is compassion and then there is being a rug.

If there are people who say they worship a pink elephant that wanders through Seattle and if you believe he will leave you with hickies on you neck every morning, do you honestly believe that there would be people who protest pink elephant stickers or statues that these pink elephant believers put on their car or in their yard? No. And if it did become pervasive and a growing belief system, would people become angry at the symbol? Of course not.

These "Athiests" have an axe to grind against God and they actively fight God on every front. They would look silly fighting against a Pink Elephant if they didn't believe it existed, why do they not look silly fighting against a God they don't believe in? A little consistancy is all I ask from those who claim to be ruled by Reason.

[Dimensio]

[human@reality human]$ Pie-hole < blow $_hot_air

Thank you for giving me a good laugh today.

[Dimensio]

When people who believe that hickey-giving pink elephants start suggesting that the government give their "church" funding in the name of "faith-based initiatives", then you might see some protests. When city governments start using taxpayer money to set up displays themed around hickey-giving pink elephants for holidays based on a holy myth regarding this hickey-giving pink elephant then you might hear some complaining.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

To what end do our actions serve? Well, in the long run they probably don't serve anything.

But your heart rejects this, doesn't it? Our actions do serve an end, and that is why we have an instinctive notion of right and wrong. That is why compassion for those we care about is easy and it is so hard to see why someone like Hitler would want to ruin so many lives.

Maybe you would agree with something like:

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope -even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun- all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.

These words were written by Solomon and can be found in the book of Ecclesiastes contained in the Bible. Wisdom of everyday life can be found in the pages, not just rambling words of people long dead. I encourage you to read it with a fresh mind and see what it actually says.

[Rate_Determining_Step]

If there are people who say they worship a pink elephant that wanders through Seattle and if you believe he will leave you with hickies on you neck every morning, do you honestly believe that there would be people who protest pink elephant stickers or statues that these pink elephant believers put on their car or in their yard? No. And if it did become pervasive and a growing belief system, would people become angry at the symbol? Of course not.

Well, what if they made you pay for Pink Elephant Memorial? What if they wanted to teach your kids about the Pink Way?

Now I don't see the answer as which system we have crammed down our throats (Pink Way vs God's Way), I understand that such ways aren't the purvue of government and advocate accordingly. And in this fight, religious homeschoolers, et al have provent to be formidable allays. But there are those who see me as the enemy to be dealt with later.

You spoke of ice cubes in terms of secular view of life... I don't see why it's morally inconsistant for a True Believer to perform medical experience on atheists as they themselves proclaim that they are no different from apes and chimps. You game?

These "Athiests" have an axe to grind against God and they actively fight God on every front.

Again, I find religion amusing in a sick sort of way. However, in America I have that luxury. As a society's religion becomes more fused with a given religion, so do their laws. Sometimes the result is good. Oftentimes the result is a whole lotta death.

[Dimensio]

But your heart rejects this, doesn't it?

My heart is a muscle. Its only function is to keep blood pumping through my circulatory system. If you are referring to my emotional reaction to the notion that in the end my life is meaningless, then I can tell you that my emotional reaction is irrelevant. Not liking the consequences does not affect reality.

I have not seen any indication that our lives serve some "greater purpose". I've heard some people argue that it just "must" be the case, but such claims always amounted to little more than appeal to emotion or appeal to wishful thinking.

Our actions do serve an end, and that is why we have an instinctive notion of right and wrong. That is why compassion for those we care about is easy and it is so hard to see why someone like Hitler would want to ruin so many lives.

We are social animals. Compassion for others is a survival trait. If we were all so selfish and sociopathic that we thought nothing of murder or genocide then we as a species would probably not have lasted this long.

[Dimensio]

I don't see why it's morally inconsistant for a True Believer to perform medical experience on atheists as they themselves proclaim that they are no different from apes and chimps.

No fair telling theists what they believe. It's okay for them to tell us how we believe or how we must shape our philisophy, but we have no right to tell them anything about what they believe.

Or something like that.

[yendu bwam]

If something like a cross could cause "anguish" to an atheist, they must not be very strong in their non belief. If atheism had a symbol, it would make me sad or even angry, but it wouldn't cause me "anguish". Liberals are like children, anything that upsets their shallow little world is a big emergency and everything should stop and change just for them.

Displaying that cross is not breaking the first amendment. In this case, the federal government is clearly NOT making any law that establishes a religion. It would just be displaying a piece of rubble that holds great meaning for the majority of citizens. Your're right here. The atheists complaining are very, very insecure in their beliefs.

[yendu bwam]

I personally think that there is something to actually trying to life this current life to the fullest and in trying to help others do the same. After all, if there isn't an afterlife then this is all we have -- strive to make the most of it.

But what constitute living life to the fullest? For some, it's accumulating far more material wealth than one could ever use. For some, it's having sex with as many as possible. For some, it's about gaining power and using it ruthlessly. (Hitler certainly lived his life fully.) I'd be cautions about your idea!

[Dimensio]

Well, for most people the best I can do is to not deliberately interfere.

Of course if their plans for happiness involve unwanted interference into my life, then I'll react accordingly. If someone's happiness lies in making my life miserable, then I will try to prevent it simply for my sake.

[Rate_Determining_Step]

I think what Dimensio was saying is that life isn't some "dress rehearsal" for a better life elsewhere.

>But what constitute living life to the fullest? For some, it's accumulating far more material wealth than one could ever use. For some, it's having sex with as many as possible. For some, it's about gaining power and using it ruthlessly. (Hitler certainly lived his life fully.) I'd be cautions about your idea!

Can you see the fundamental difference between killing someone and building a business? Do you think you need a rhyme from god to tell you the difference? That those of us who aren't mystics will somday say... "Geee, I was gonna buy that Lexus I've worked so hard for. Naaah, I think I'll kill someone".

Let's just say it might be a good thing that you have religion telling you not to do that.

If you are telling us that without religion, there is no possibility of a moral philosophy, then you're wrong and we could discuss that.