Liberty Is Overrated--Safety Should Be Our First Concern*

Ever Vigilant ^ | 06-19-2002 | Lee R. Shelton IV

[Dan from Michigan]

But those of you who are unwilling to effectively deal with potentially horrendous consequences - will you still feel the same after another 10,000 deaths? ...

HELL YEAH

[A CA Guy]

I don't like the phrasing "Liberty is Overrated" stillbornagain. It is flippant and disrespectful as I read that.
But when the monsters are at the gate, we do what we must to prevent them from winning or we will have nothing left.
Terrorists are causing us to be cautious and to cover our weaknesses.
Some will feel their privacy is violated. For an innocent that is terrible, but if that process catches a bad guy before he kills a few thousand people, I will learn to live with it for a while.

[Dan from Michigan]

We will always have our respect for Liberty. We should not obsess over the purity of what we want at the expense of our own extinction.

Can you please explain how giving up our freedoms with the Patriot Act(Know your customer, Secret Searches, out-of-district judges making decisions, etc) will help us in this war.

Besides, until CONGRESS officially declares war, any freedom as far as I'm concerned is non-negotiable. If we are at war, declare war, none of this half assed stuff.

[Dan from Michigan]

But safety is our first concern

No, it's YOUR first concern, not mine.

[A CA Guy]

The burden level to search and listen were lowered Dan so they could take more instant action, rather than be tied down in a court by the ACLU while another 3 or 4 thousand die.

It would be wonderful if we didn't need all this.

Do you have suggestions as to how America can monitor the bad guys without listening to quite a few good ones in the process? Because if you have a gem of an idea, the country would love to have and implement it.

[ninenot]

the principle of the "three-S's".

Here in the Big CIty of Milwaukee, we know from the "three S's."

Of course, that's the ones of us who go deer hunting in Northern Wisconsin, where the "three S's" were employed by Capone's boys, as well as EVERYONE who doesn't want Wisconsin's Dept of Natural Resources nosing around.

Matter of fact, lots of us have small crawlers with cable-winches. Eliminates the 2nd of the 3 S's. Instead of all that manual labor, you place the cable around a large pine, pull w/the dozer (only a few feet,) place the package under the middle of the partly-uprooted pine, and back the dozer so the tree is replaced.

Unhook the winch, replace the dozer in the barn, and have a few brew-skis.

[metesky]

The problem with this advice is that it is well over two centuries old

The few individuals who are not seem to be those who are clinging too tightly to their precious Constitution.

Any attempt to detract from the plans of our president and his administration is tantamount to treason. If they can't learn the concept of "go along to get along," they need to be silenced.

The Constitution may have been good enough for a fledgling nation 200 years ago, but we must evolve beyond such a narrow worldview if we hope to remain a global superpower.

If we allow a dusty old document like the Constitution to prevent us from doing what is necessary, we shall lose the respect of those who look to our nation as an example of greatness.

This is either tongue-in-cheek or written by a lunatic.

[A CA Guy]

Not being taken over by enemies and eradicated is the concern.
You are dealing with people that want you and I dead. They have no desire to negotiate a peace.
If you ignore them, they will not go away.

It concerns us all.

[Dan from Michigan]

If you secret search my house if I'm around, you are an intruder and will be treated accordingly.

If they have probably cause for a secret search, get a warrant first. And why can't they use a local judge. I see "Alcee Hastings"(former judge) all over again here. Get one friendly judge and go around the others.

It would be wonderful if we didn't need all this.
We don't.

BTW - Under the unpatriotic Act, govt can steal my property without a conviction if I'm a suspectic terrorist, and I'd have to use 'affirmative defense' to get it back. Prove my innocence. That's unAmerican.

I see NOTHING in that bill where lives can be saved.

[ninenot]

Is he still dead?

Yup.

And his IQ is exactly the same as when he was alive.

[Dan from Michigan]

Not being taken over by enemies and eradicated is the concern.
That is a concern. I have my guns to protect me over here. Now we need to eradicate the bad guys out in Saudi Arabia and where ever else they are, and why isn't Bush letting Israel taking take out the terrorist there?

You are dealing with people that want you and I dead. They have no desire to negotiate a peace.
I don't want a peace either. I Want them dead, and our freedoms here in tact. It's not a one or the other situation.

[A CA Guy]

That is your view and we just don't agree. But I enjoy hearing your view. Thanks.

[ninenot]

how to legally avoid paying that much tax.

Did somebody forget to put all the buttons on your elevator controls?

Look at the reliable published statistics.

IN FACT, Americans on the average pay about 51% of their income in taxes.

The cost of regulations (also paid by consumers) adds another 10% or so--possibly more, but not much more.

Do you REALLY think that GM does not recover its tax liabilities from automobile purchasers?

And, by the way, I work with one of the better tax guys in this metro area. Ain't no way around sales tax, gasoline tax, nor MOST personal (Fed/State) income taxes--nor around property taxes.

What's left to avoid?

[Steve Van Doorn]

He is the type that gives conservatives a bad name. Personally I think he should be freeped because he claims to be a conservative.

[ninenot]

BTW, it is becoming clearer that the vast majority of the 'terrorists' are rather stupid. ShoeBomb is not an intellectual giant, nor is the Chicago gangster-type who did everything but leave yellow ribbons to mark his trail.

So if this is true, what's the big worry??

[Dan from Michigan]

There's always a concern, but I do not see how giving up our freedoms is going to help us.

I won't let them let me give up my freedoms ANYWAY. If we do that, they win. The terrorists hate freedom.

[A CA Guy]

You can't protect your home in such a primitive manner unless it is a manned army at the door.
They will explode a near by nuclear plant and give you a tan line you can't shoot at Dan.
They might poisoning your water and as you choke to death you can't shoot the poison as well.
They might drive next to a big school and use a big bomb to blow out the whole school killing all your children (God Forbid).

I think that is totally disgusting, but it is what we are facing if we don't let the spies and intelligence branches go at it.

Even with the current laws we are not 100% safe.
I equally share your frustration on this topic.

Israel has a tough problem. If they just unleash themselves against the other side it will be called genocide and murder of what innocent people there could be there.
I think it is a step in the right dirrection when they take land away from them for each violent act now.

If lucky they will have 3 million Palestinians on a pice of land soon only the size of a Wal-Mart parking lot.

[THEUPMAN]

clearer that the vast majority of the 'terrorists' are rather stupid.

mabey that's the only ones our leos can catch....

[A CA Guy]

Here is a link to more I stated about Israel Dan on the same subject.
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo cus/news/702669/posts?page=5#5

[A CA Guy]

Divorce!