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Pornography: Formula for Despair
CERC ^ | Donald DeMarco

Posted on 06/17/2002 8:25:38 PM PDT by JMJ333

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To: Harrison Bergeron
Pride Avarice Lust Envy Gluttony Sloth Anger Who is to say which is the worst of sins for any given man or woman?

Well, I didn't say which was worst! They are all bad. Christianity teaches that pride is the worst. You don't have to agree with that, though you might see the wisdom of it.

121 posted on 06/17/2002 10:06:40 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: Harrison Bergeron
Gluttony is a bigger problem for me than porn. I always feel more guilty over gobbling up a pumpkin pie than over spotting some chick flashing her nekkid ta-tas (as used to happen a lot at the Indy 500).
122 posted on 06/17/2002 10:06:46 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: Reeses
"Do you feel similarly about the crime and murder depicted in PG entertainment?"

It's a false comparison, apples and oranges, regardless of one's perceptions about pornography and murder. The depiction of crime and murder in PG entertainment isn't real. Hardcore pornography is.

123 posted on 06/17/2002 10:09:37 PM PDT by Chunga
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To: gcruse
I care that there will always be people out there terrified at the prospect that someone else is enjoying themselves. The lifestyle police have to be pressed back continuously.

Nobody is going to take away your little porn stash, don't worry. BUt I know that I will teach my sons that getting into porn will only hurt them.

124 posted on 06/17/2002 10:09:38 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: JMJ333
In her book Enemies of Eros, Maggie Gallagher calls pornography "Propaganda for f****** - anyone, anywhere, anytime." I thought that hit the nail on the head.
125 posted on 06/17/2002 10:09:42 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: Chunga
The depiction of crime and murder in PG entertainment isn't real. Hardcore pornography is.

I saw a program on TV about a woman in a porn video who needed extra money and so had sex with 30 men in that video. She shortly later came down with AIDs.

126 posted on 06/17/2002 10:11:14 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
 Most people understand that vices take away a portion of your freedom and potential in life

     These people are usually of a religious bent...though to hear
      one denomination lathering up about demon rum while
      another denomination swills at leisure is reminiscent of
      the porn-noporn debate, with a twist of irony.
 
 

127 posted on 06/17/2002 10:11:29 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: yendu bwam
those that can rise above it lead freer and very frequently more happy lives.

An interesting assertion--and perhaps it's true. Easy to make such claims, but have you got any quantitative evidence to back it up? Or is this just anecdotal wisdom? Some blithely claim that liberation from society's suppresive norms leads to happier lives. Whom should we believe? Where's the evidence?

Please don't take this as too sarcastic. I only mean to point out that a lot of assertions are made in the course of these arguments. It's very hard to prove things one way or another. But each side argues (or implies) its way is inherently morally superior--whether or not there are unequivocable facts to back it up. Anyway--even if porn and lust are such pernicious scourges, I just can't believe they amount to much compared to other pressing problems. That's MY subjective viewpoint...no evidence to back it up...ok, nevermind.

128 posted on 06/17/2002 10:12:24 PM PDT by HassanBenSobar
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To: Palladin
I believe that even those who contend that pornography is harmless must at least tactily acknowledge the power and influence of words and ideas. Clearly, if what we read, hear, and see affect our thinking, and thinking influences behavior, then pron does indeed have a damaging impact on thinking and conduct. Idea, do have consequences. The libertines are only concerned with self as usual.
129 posted on 06/17/2002 10:12:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: agrandis
Thanks. =)
130 posted on 06/17/2002 10:14:17 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: gcruse
Neither do I try to refute the loonies who would tell me the horrors of smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, having an abortion, or any other legal activity for an adult. I will not defame my liberty by submitting it to your approval.

Abortion is different, since it involves another human being (especially in something like partial birth abortion).

131 posted on 06/17/2002 10:14:38 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: agrandis
There is no horror associated with abortion?
Or years of smoking cigarettes, for that matter??

(For the record, I am against "smoking laws").

Trying to refute the vice warriors is a waste of time.
If it's legal, refutation is unnecessary, particularly if
they swear they aren't trying to take your freedom
to do exactly as you please away.  Which is how
they start. :)

132 posted on 06/17/2002 10:15:03 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: JMJ333
The libertines are only concerned with self as usual.

True.

133 posted on 06/17/2002 10:15:38 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
I'm posting this from a Christian standpoint, because... well, I'm a Christian :)

Anyhow, I agree with you about becoming "freer" when one overcomes sexual animal desires. Sex isn't wrong in the right context... which is between a husband and wife. Outside of this type of arrangement, people often become slaves to sexual desire because there tends to be less obligation and consequences (no children, family, etc., etc.). The body isn't "dirty" (God himself took on a human body) and sex is only wrong when removed from it's proper place and then it becomes a distortion... just like many other things (money, food, etc.). To sum it up, when anything other than God becomes the center of one's existence, it is wrong and leads to many miseries. I see pornography as a severe distortion of what sex was intended to be and it makes me cringe when I hear about children being exposed to it. Currently, it seems a far more common occurence than when I was growing up and it makes me worry about future generations.

I know that some will disagree and that's fine, but I just thought I'd try to state my perspective on it. Hopefully, it made some sense as I'm quite tired at the moment.

134 posted on 06/17/2002 10:16:03 PM PDT by grimalkin
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To: PJ-Comix
I just don't care. It's just not all that important.

And yet it was important enough for you to waste the past hour on this thread.

135 posted on 06/17/2002 10:16:15 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: JMJ333
Clearly, if what we read, hear, and see affect our thinking, and thinking influences behavior, then pron does indeed have a damaging impact on thinking and conduct.

My apologies. All this time I thought you were talking about porn. My mistake. It is pron that you are attacking. Well, I fully agree with you. I too hate pron. Pron destroys lives and turns people into worthless automatons. I only hope to worthy enough to join you in the righteous crusade to destroy that sicko pron.

136 posted on 06/17/2002 10:18:52 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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To: yendu bwam
Abortion is different, since it involves another human
being (especially in something like partial birth abortion).

I agree that partial birth abortion is murder.
 

137 posted on 06/17/2002 10:19:32 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: HassanBenSobar; yendu bwam; gcruse
An interesting assertion--and perhaps it's true. Easy to make such claims, but have you got any quantitative evidence to back it up?

Well, here is gcruse's post #48 and my post #74 that offer some quantitative evidence.

138 posted on 06/17/2002 10:20:16 PM PDT by Starwind
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To: HassanBenSobar
You may have misconstrued my point. I conceded: suppose the article is 100% correct. Then what? I don't mind the social criticism. Lots of things in society deserve criticism. So, fine. Maybe it IS correct. Is it not reasonable to ask, 'so what'? Ok, I missed you're "what if" post I was referring to your original post. Yes it is reasonable to ask "so what?" but not as a means to shut down legitimate discussion and criticism. I think the author made some valid points each of which would be great jumping off points into other discussions.

The problem with porn discussions is they generally devolve into criticism of intent rather than legitimate discussion, which is the point to shut down discussion. I know of no other topic which such a large group of people who don't think porn should be dicussed critically at all, on any basis. It's almost like porn is a religion and dissent is blasphemy.

The ARTICLE (not necessarily the poster), from the tone itself, screams out that something should be done.

I didn't get that from reading the article. It seemed just the opposite, that the author was deliberately trying to steer away from proscriptive solutions and instead bring up valid (to him) criticism.

Obviously criticism has inherent in it a measure of proscription. The movie critic may persuade you not to spend your money on a particular movie. Likewise with a music or book or restuarant critic. However, I don't think that can be assumed to be the intent unless explicitely stated "Don't see such and such movie or buy such and such book".

Usually criticism it is more esoteric. Also, it is sometimes meant to goad others into improving the message, which I think could be a legitimate area of criticism in porn.

If I had to insist on one point, it's that porn is utterly trivial compared to other social ills. Just my point of view.

Well, I agree it's relative. All things are relative. Even so, another legitimate area of criticism would be potential links between porn and other "social ills". At least it can be explored through discussion, assuming it it is not (again) preemptively deemed off limits to discuss such things.

139 posted on 06/17/2002 10:21:11 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: gcruse
"What part of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness remains hidden to you?"

It's not hidden to me; it's hidden to you.

Firstly, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness aren't mentioned in the Constitution; they're mentioned in the Declaration Of Independence. (One down.)

Secondly, if your happiness involves beating me over the nose with a tire iron, you don't get to do it. You'll get yourself hurt and you'll go to jail. If your happiness involves having sex with my underage niece, you don't get to do it. You'll get yourself severely hurt and you'll go to jail. If your happiness involves stealing my car for a joyride, you don't get to do it. If you're caught, you'll go to jail.

And, just to be clear about how the Founding Fathers regarded "morals laws": when Thomas Jefferson was alive, if your happiness involved committing sodomy, he thought it proper to have you castrated. (Two down.)

So, as I said, your pursuit of happiness isn't mentioned in the Constitution and it isn't necessarily a right, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

140 posted on 06/17/2002 10:21:46 PM PDT by Chunga
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