[Stavka2]

First of all, Britian bombed Berlin 6 times before an adequet response. It was not to harden moral but to take the pressure off of the RAF which was being slowly exterminated by superior numbers and production. When the US entered the war it picked right up. They started with walled cities, it was easier to control the fire that way and get the formula of bombs just right. The formula ran something like this: First came the hard bombs to break up the buildings. Then after enough damage was done, came the waves of phosperous bombs to create fires that could not be put out by water. Following this came a mixture of anti personnel bombs to destroy rescue crews and civilians running for cover.

This bombing continued for days until the flames reached heights of a mile or more and hurricane strength winds snapped trees of 1 meter diameter at city edges. All were killed, either axphixiated or combusted in their bunkers and cellers. Accounts range of civilians trapped in burning asphalt. Extermination was the goal because hardened industry was not targetted by the West, it was targetted by the East, by Russia. Talk to some old Germans, I did, I spoke extensively with many witnesses. I wrote a term paper on the subject. By book references, incidently, were mostly American and British writers.

[Burkeman1]

I will just add one more fact- the best numbers indicate that anywhere between 1 million to 2 million Russians or other Soviet ethnic groups served in Vlasov's ROA or as Hiwis in the Wermacht or as independant anti Soviet Partisan groups. I am not including the forces of Bandera either. No comparable number of Germans served for the Russians.

[TheEngineer]

Stavka2,

I've been reading through this thread, and it's just getting way too deep for my pea-brain. I don't know enough European history to follow the arguments, but I have just one thing to add... Last Sep 11, when our country was dealt a devastating blow, we got a glimpse of who are friends really are. In life, that's how it happens... Who is there when you are down? The Brits were there... The Japanese were there... The Russians were there... Western Europe seemed mostly there, but there were plenty in those countries engaging in moral equivalency.

But when I saw the cheering and dancing in the "muslim street" across the entire muslim world on CNN, that's when I and the rest of America received a big education on who is our friend, and who is our enemy. I'll never forget the muslims giddy celebration of usama's terrorism. And I'll never forget the deafening silence of the American muslim population. (And I remember the laughing reaction of the Chinese press corps when they were watching the airplanes collide into the trade centers.)

The people in the muslim countries hate us. Therefore, they are the enemy. Apparently, they are now Russia/US's common enemy. Why did Bush do a quick turnaround on Russia/Chechnya? Perhaps he saw it the same way I did. Sep 11 had a profound and lasting effect on my view of the world.

Russian soldiers slapping around the terrorist sympathizers in Chechnya? It doesn't even show up on my radar scope of important things to worry about in this world.