Bush and Putin unite against a common 'foe'

Toronto Sun ^ | June 16, 2002 | Eric Margolis

[Burkeman1]

As for eygpt you are so pathetically ignorant as I won't reply.

As for the 12 million Russians killed by the Germans? I find that laughable. How many were killed by Russian partisans? How many were killed by the SMERSH? Or the NKVD? How many Russians were killed by "stopping groups". Did you ever ask your uncle how many "cowards" he killed in the Red Army? Russians love denial. They love to deny the 2 million rapes in Germany. How many rapes occured in Poland or in Serbia, or Czech or Slovak lands? I tried to engage you in friendship but to be honest I have nothing but a sickening disgust with Russians- slaves- not capable of self rule or any sort of republic other than direct tyranny or kleptocracy. If it wasnt for the brutal rule of Stalin Russians would have let the Germans win.

[Burkeman1]

And let us be even more brutal. When Berlin fell- in early May of 1945- and it became aparent that the population had to be fed- they were. The Germans in Berlin were fed. But meanwhile in Soviet Central Russia (Kazakistan) they were reduced to canabalism. Are you a communist apologist or just a left wing westerner. Only right wingers care or know about what happened to those the Left forgot.

[Stavka2]

The only thing facing me here is a closed minded revisionist who only sees what he wants to see. You've conviniently ignored anything and everything that does not fit into your "superiority" chovinism. You live in a fantasy world that denies the Bible, denies historical fact, denies the blood on your own hands while pointing to others. By the way, the US army also executed cowards...but since the Germans didn't shoot US POWs there was a lot less to fear from being captured.

You "disgust" with us matters little in the real world and thankfuly ADULTS run the US and not biggoted revisionists like you. The last time I met someone so revisionist he was from the Aryan Nation...maybe you know the guy.

[Burkeman1]

Well- onto something else. Did you ever see "enemy at the gates?" The Film about Stalingrad made last year? What is your opinion on that? I give that movie a B- grade. Good opening but then it got tangled with a love story which I thought was totally out of place for such a film. I hear K-19 also has some major flaws (like portraying the Soviet Crew as being poorly trained and heavy drinkers) which was most likely not the case since they were the elite of the Soviet navy. There was a German movie by the same director of "Das Boot" who made a film called "Stalingrad" about a decade ago. It was horrible. It was from the German perspective but it portrayed them much to sympathetically in my view (all the soldiers in the film were portrayed as being against Hitler when that was very far from the case in reality.)

[Burkeman1]

Officially- one man was executed for desertion under fire in all branches of the American military- PFC Eddie Slovak. At Stalingrad alone- official Soviet records of those executed for "cowardice" were over 15'000. That does not include those murdered by SMERSH machine gun stopping units or battlefield executions by officers. Some historians estimate the number between 50 to 100 thousand.

[Burkeman1]

Beevor makes the point that while Soviet Officers seemed to have behaved themselves in Germany they did nothing to control their troops. Beevor also points out that Soviet Officers were very often murdered by their own troops and not just in battle. What is astonishing is that in the Red Army no system of passes from base even existed until after the surrender of Germany. What was normal for Western Armies- weekend passes, permission to leave a unit with written orders- did not exist in the Red Army until the occupation period.

[Burkeman1]

Hebrew slaves had nothing to do with- at all, ZERO- with the building of the Pyramids- wrong time period.

[Burkeman1]

I don't think you even speak Russian. Are you some disgruntled half Russian from Chicago? Foreigners say "das vidanya" but what does a true Russian native say for a greeting on the street?

[Stavka2]

Why not a million? Read Enemy at the Gates, the movie was stupid. There were actually much fewer then that. Now, running up to the city battle, they had problems, but once the city battle started, it all changed. Particularly since the early defense was almost entirely by civilians armed to the teeth. The Red October Metal Works were held for several weeks by the very workers, men and women, armed with machineguns, recoiless rifles and such...they built the T-34s and drove them out to fight...tak shto gaspodin, rastrelivat Ryskih ne nyzno bilo, mnogi shli dobra volna na boye v goradi.

Or read Staligrad by Ballentine Press (I think) says the same thing.

[Stavka2]

I thought Stalingrad was a good movie. By the end, most of the soldiers of the Wehrmacht (which was politically neutral) dispised Hitler, especially once they figured out they'd been abandoned. The book Enemy at the Gates was good, the movie was a piece of Hollywood trash about as accurate as the politically correct Patriot. Russian soldiers never charged head long into battle, they were more heavily armed then the germans and used Storm Groups of 20-30 men, armed to the teeth to sneak through the sewers or through the roof tops and strike the German rear. The Germans, while great field manueverists, simply had to idea how to take a city and decided to just pound it...read: body waves backed by tanks...well, most of the tanks survived...can't say the same for the German infantry. It was also in Stalingrad that STAVKA perfected Kill Sacks....the movie took less then 10 pages from the book, warped it totally and made a Holly wood soap opera out of it....pathetic. Das Boot and Stalingrad were both good movies. Suverov was already a super sniper and a major in the Sniper Division.

[Burkeman1]

Oh- don't get me started on "The Patriot". That was such a lie from beginning to end that it made me sick. The English never burned a Church full of civilians or even killed civilians as they portray it in the movie! It is a gross and unforgivable lie in my opinion.

In fact- I would wager that American patriots lynched more Loyalists than did the English Patriots.

But I disagree with you on Stalingrad the movie. It could have been so much better. But - to be honest- I think it was edited very badly.

[Burkeman1]

About the fact of Russians being barely armed charging headlong into battle- that was about the only part of the movie that was accurate. Beevor and many many Russian historians confirm the incredible carnage in late september and October of the 62nd Army under Chuikov- and how they were driven into battle under threat of death. Germans who survived attest to mountains of Russians dead in front of their positions- so much so that the bodies had to be burnt because the mounds of russian dead provided cover for the following waves. Surely you won't deny the existence of Penal battalions as well? The Germans actually adopted the idea from the Russians during the assault on Berlin.

[Burkeman1]

Did you ever read "Stalingrad" by Beevor? That is a great book. This is a book that shows the depravity of both sides. From Stalin not allowing, until the last minute, civilian evacution to Hitler writing off the entire 6th army as traitors because he messed up.

There is testimoney from German soldiers transferred from the Russian Front to the Western Front about how easy and civilized the fighting was. On the Eastern front- weather Russian or German - if you were captured you would most likely be killed or die slowly in a labor camp. On the Western front both sides knew that if they were captured they had a good chance of life in a cozy camp. And even the fighting was not as brutal. Fire fights tended to die down past 5PM- when the officers on both sides wanted to relax. On the Western front numerous truces were called to gather wounded and dead. That almost never happened on the Eastern front because neither Stalin or Hitler cared about the dead or wounded.

To this day one can find bones of American dead on our Cival War battlefields (more Americans died in 1861- 1865 than in all our wars combined). I understand that they are still finding Russian dead all over your land and the Germans routinely discover Wermacht dead all over Germany.

[Stavka2]

I don't deny for a moment the amount of dead...that was true, but they were all heavily armed. There were massive stockpiles of arms moved...enough so to arm to the teeth almost 100,000 civilians who were the first line of defense before the 62nd ever got there. Yekomenko ordered the evacuation of all non combatents (read children, sick, pregnant and old) out of the city on 24 August, 2 weeks before the Wehrmacht really arrived but several days after the first major bombing by the Luftwaffe...that killed 40,000. As a matter of fact, over 10,000 civilians were butchered by the Luftwaffe while on the docks, waiting evacuation. The civilians were trapped between the cliffs and the docks with Stukas dive bombing them....pure murder.

The part of the old woman trying to get on the boat and being pulled off is bogus.

A lot of the fighting was done with hand grenades. If you read Enemy at the Gates, the Russians were seeing the same thing about the Germans. One Russian platoon held out for a week in a department store. The survivors said that the fountain outside the store was covered with german dead from the body waves they were doing across the square. They finally fell when their recoiless rounds ran out and the Germans did a major tank push.

[Burkeman1]

Beevor is a Russian historian. At Stlingrad men went into battle without arms. That is a fact. Russia lost a million men at stalingrad alone. That is an amazing number. German machine gunners taken captive by Russians said it was pure murder in the waves from September to October 1942. What are you defending? The Honor of the Red Army? There were many heroes from the Red Army- but also many who were murdered by a sick pysocopath who ruled Russia at the time - forced into battle without arms and either butchered by the Germans or the SMERSH stopping groups.

[Burkeman1]

There is a popular Russian film about Chechyna- I think it is called "war"/ Have you sen it? MY opinion about Chechyna is that Russia should let them have their "independent" state. Why not? Russia would dominate it anyway. It would be like a Carribean country is to America- totally subserviant. Why is Russia fighting there? They should make Chechnya her bitch at the UN.

[Stavka2]

Well, lets see what happened last time they had an independent state:

1. 1,500 people kidnapped
2. 4 british telecom workers beheaded
3. 9 red cross workers murdered
4. major transit point for heroin
5. major transit point for prostitution (read white slavery)
6. apartment bombings
7. major training/transit facility for Islamics
8. kidnap/murder of a 4 star Russian general on negotiations
9. staging area for Al Quida
10. Oh, yeah...and that little invasion of Daghistan and the extermination of some dozen uncoperative villages whole sale.

Should I list more? Much less then this was enough reason for America to bomb away on the Taliban. First off, the Caribian is a Catholic not Islamic area and secondly, why does the US hold on to the Virgin Islands and Peurto Rico? It's US property.

[Stavka2]

Summoning Chuikov to his command post, Yeremenko appointed him the new commander of the 62nd Army. Echoing Stalin's proclamation, Yeremenko had also issued a directive to all his army commanders, to take "Not another step back". Countersigned by Soviet Commissar Nikita S. Krushchev, this order was backed up with instructions for the NKVD to shoot anyone who failed to comply. Directing Chuikov to hold Stalingrad at all costs, Yeremenko asked of him, "Comrade General, how do you interpret your assignment?" Chuikov did not hesitate. He told the Front Commander, "We do not dare lose the city!" He then assured Yeremenko and Krushchev that the 62nd Army would hold at Stalingrad or die in the city. Leaving to take stock of his new command, he first determined that he could not match the firepower of the Wehrmacht out on the open steppe. He laid plans for a street fight, pinpointing future strong-points where the enemy would be forced to pass on their march to the Volga. He positioned his artillery, and registered his guns where the Germans would be concentrated in the greatest numbers. He then issued a proclamation to his soldiers - "There is no land past the Volga" - and awaited the arrival of the 6th Army in Stalingrad.

An excellent site....very good read. Doesn't exactly support the blind body rush concept.

[Stavka2]

By Sept. 1st, the 62nd Army was fully engaged throughout the city, and the battle began in earnest. The rubble and the ruins of Stalingrad now posed serious problems of movement for the Germans. With the Panzers unable to maneuver quickly through the debris choked streets, Paulus's war of rapid movement was over. Chuikov had turned several key buildings into strongholds, and the Germans attempted to advance through paths which were zeroed in on by Soviet artillery.

German gains were now measured in yards and inches, as the determined Russians made them fight for every house and building which remained standing. Stuka dive bombers continued to hammer the Russian strong points, inflicting numerous casualties. The survivors, though bloodied, merely found new hiding places in the rubble and continued to fight on. Despite horrendous losses, the Germans systematically leveled the city block by block and relentlessly pressed towards the Volga.

While it was still capable of production, the Krasny Oktyaber plant continued to produce T-34 tanks and drive them directly into battle, often crewed by the workers who built them. Those civilians not cowering in cellars now pitched in to aid in the defense of the city. One German Panzer battalion over-ran a position, only to be sickened when they discovered that the defenders were women.

In spite of the heroic efforts of it's defenders, the 62nd Army was being driven back slowly but surely. Chuikov struggled to maintain communications with his beleaguered forces, but realized that the best he could hope to do was to give general instructions. He later stated that, "In Stalingrad, every man had to be his own General!" Russian positions which were by-passed continued to fight on, without orders, reinforcements, or supplies. Many would hold out for weeks, until finally running out of food and ammunition. All continued to exact a heavy toll of the enemy up to the moment they were over-run and killed.

[Stavka2]

This is about the fight in the railroad station. Hardly blind rushes against machineguns. Besides, there were very few empty or open places in Stalingrad. Only an idiot wouldn't use the rubble...which the civilians had built into barricades, to move up.

Lt. Anton Kuzmich Dragan received these orders from Vasily Chuikov in person. Gathering a platoon of less than 50 men, Dragan and his soldiers proceeded to frustrate the Germans in an epic room by room struggle for control of the depot for nearly three weeks. Breaking through walls, crawling over the rafters, and burrowing under the floor boards, the Russians would yield a portion of the building to the Germans only to emerge elsewhere and start the struggle all over again.

Exchanging gunfire down hallways, lobbing grenades back and forth between rooms, Dragan's men inflicted as many casualties as possible on the enemy. In spite of this heroic resistance, Dragan's force was eventually reduced to a handful of men. Running out of ammunition, their rations gone, one of his soldiers took out a bayonet and carved on the wall, "Rodimtsev's Guardsmen fought and died for their country here". Under cover of darkness, Dragan and 5 of his soldiers slipped out of the building, made their way through enemy lines, and later rejoined the fight.