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Problem of Rampant Sexual Abuse Among Protestant Clergy
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Posted on 06/15/2002 1:12:25 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper
TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; clergy; pastor; protestant; sexualabuse
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To: Conservative til I die; SoothingDave; BuffyT
I understand a little better now and my apologies for my #118. My concern about responding in kind to the BuffyTs is twofold.
First, lurkers and spiritual fence sitters are sometimes drawn to these threads and often come to conclusions about faith and religions based not on the content of the posts but rather on the conduct of the posters. This is understandable given the difficulty of resolving religious issues in a debate format. I specifically remember several posters being particularly influenced by SoothingDave's responses to some very bigotted responses about 18 months ago on one of the "Mercilessly Neverending Threads". They admitted being influenced not by the content of the arguments that took place but rather by the patient and respectful way Dave responded to an onslaught of malignant attacks.
Second, I believe that all of the Church is under attack at this time and that interdenominational bickering is in nobody's interest. If BuffyT believes that the rest of Christianity remains immune to disease simply because the Roman Catholic Church is currently in the headlines and that his denomination is safe if the Catholic Church is weakened, then he (she) is mistaken. Pointing out that this is not merely a Catholic problem is important but responding with the type of venom used by some of the anti-Catholic posters helps neither cause. I didn't mean to imply that you were a bigot but I stand by my assertion that antagonistic responses do not further our cause. I engage in them myself but try not to as difficult as that may be with the negativity of some of them.
At any rate, since there is no point to creating animosity with our Christian borthers, there is even less point to creating it within our own ranks. You and I need to stand together.
To: Conservative til I die
Yep, it went right over my head, and I am six two.
But yes, I think I got it now.
To: Conservative til I die
The further you move away from Catholic teaching, the further away from the full Truth you move So, hypothetically, if you and I read and committed to memory 100% of the exact same Catholic bible, and had 100% conmprehension, what is the difference by which you would have the fuller truth?
To: RaceBannon
Yeah, well ok. Your statement just proves my point.
It's really sad, you know. You can't see beyond the end
of your nose. There seems to be brush fires everywhere,
aren't there? Maybe you should try looking for smoke
signals from your own direction. We have been fighting
our forest fire. Our Lord only knows when it will be
your turn. And it will come. I hope you see it in time
to fight it. Maybe you'll need our help, and we will give
it, if you won't be too proud to take it! But with your
arrogance, pride comes before the fall!
124
posted on
06/16/2002 11:31:27 AM PDT
by
dsutah
Comment #125 Removed by Moderator
To: Starwind
There's your problem. You think Christianity and Catholicism is about memorizing the Bible. Christianity is more than just how many verses you can recall in 60 seconds.
This is a non-sequitur.
To: Conservative til I die
Actually, not.
Knowledge of scripture is fundamental for every Christian, and I was using that hypothesis as a starting point to eliminate any differences between us based on ability to quote scripture, and wanting to understand from there what accounts for the 'fuller truth' you hold for Catholics over the rest of the great naked unwashed.
I thought you might elaborate on doctrine or traditions, or something. It seemed more reasonable to ask, than to assume what your answer would be.
But you're reading between the lines where I don't write.
I'm merely grateful and amazed that it pleased God to include me in His elect, and that even if you're perfect, Christ would still have gone to the cross for me, and it is all a gift, as I surely have nothing to boast about.
When the day comes that Jesus asks you, 'I watched your posts to Starwind. What were you thinking?' ...what are you going to tell him?
To: dsutah
repeating your foolish replies tells me you have already drank the koolaid. Have a nice day. I will pray that you get right with God.
To: dsutah
repeating your foolish replies tells me you have already drank the koolaid. Have a nice day. I will pray that you get right with God.
And, oh, by the way, you never addressed any of my points, either. That is one way to admit you cannot answer, but to answer the way you did, that is sad. Truely sad.
To: big'ol_freeper
Since the mid-1990s, Kendall United Methodist Church has required two teachers to be in each Sunday school class for children, said Mary Susan Ward, the congregation's minister of Christian education.
Background screenings are conducted for all paid staff and many volunteers, she said.
Despite measures like this, clergy abuse cases continue to surface.
A Southern Baptist minister, Fernando Garcia, made 26 videotapes of himself abusing numerous children before an 8-year-old boy came forward in Greenwood, S.C., two years ago. He recently began a 60-year prison sentence for sexually abusing 23 children.
Closer to home, Boca Raton Rabbi Jerrold Levy was sentenced to 6 ½ years in prison for having sex with a 14-year-old boy he met over the Internet.
The United Methodists have a case before the Florida Supreme Court to resolve whether the denomination can be held accountable for a volunteer at a Pensacola church who allegedly sexually harassed a female staffer.
And just recently, police in South Florida accused two non-Catholic Christian leaders of sexual misconduct.
Last month, Miami police arrested the Rev. Misael Castillo, 41, the pastor of Iglesia Bautista Jerusalen in Allapattah, after officers said they found him naked inside a parked van having sex with a 17-year-old boy. He was charged with having unlawful sexual acts with a minor and released on a $15,000 bond. Castillo will be arraigned May 6.
Castillo has resigned from the church, said the Rev. David Cleeland, executive director of the Miami Baptist Association, a 280-church organization to which Iglesia Bautista Jerusalen belongs.
In January, youth pastor Monte Vaughn Benjamin of the nondenominational A Place Called Hope was charged with molesting two boys, 17 and 14. He has pleaded not guilty and a trial date is set for May 13.
Benjamin has told church leaders he is innocent. He has been relieved of duties until court proceedings and the police investigation are final, according to a church statement. You had to combine three or 4 different religions to get the same quantity of abuse cases as the RCC alone!
And not ONE sentence of these people being shuffled off to another church where they can continue their perversion.
Not ONE sentence where the local Bishops hid their perversion.
Not ONE sentence where these people were allowed to continue in the ministry, all were removed from the ministry, including the one who plead not guilty.
4 of 5 of these you cite in this article were arrested, 2 of them serving time for their perversion, with 2 more facing trial, name ONE RCC scandal like this where ANY Priest is facing charges without his Bishop trying to hide his perversion!
Name ONE Catholic Scandal like this where any of that can be said. You cannot, that is why it is easy to point out the outrage, that is why it is easy prey for the media, that is why I say to leave that religion, your leaders are letting pedophiles molest your children!!
To: lalala
Baptists like myself have been screaming about this for years. It is an abomination, and this church and denomination should be avoided.
To: Thorn11cav
Although I don't disagree, I think your painting with a very broad brush. The problem with the RCC is not the people, nor the faith as a whole. The problem is that the people no longer control their church. The entire leadership is in a 3rd world country where 65 million Cathoic have no say so on what the doctrine is. One word from the Vatican and Friday is no longer "fish only" day. Once they were instructed to reproduce without reservation, then one day the "No birth control"..suddenly changed to don't ask don't tell. You know I've previously debated doctrine, so you know where I immensely disagree with the RCC being Biblical, but this issue is so grossly clear and unhidden! I am amazed that some of your friends speak as if just because someone else might be doing it means that the majority of the offences of the RCC mean nothing!
I have noticed you and Black Elk try to be civil, I apologize to you for this thread, but I am letting my emotions fly on this, it is incredible!! How many meetings have been had inthe last month alone, and STILL no zero tolerance comes from the American Bishops!!
Someone previous stated something about it is too little too late, well, that is the clear appearance of this, after decades and generations of this abuse going on, and decades and generations of the RCC leadership hiding it, covering it up, and moving Priests around to hide the sin, I am stunned how anyone can remain a Catholic!
At least I can understand a debate on doctine and trying to convert those who presently do not believe as I, but who needs to be converted about stopping men from molesting your sons and getting them in jail??
People who join a group that teaches wierd doctrine invite dissent from loved ones and those who try to convert them to what they believe is the better way, but how do you convert someone who not only blindly obeys his leadership on this, but then tries to throw up a diversion y saying "You do it too!!" which is not even the point!! At least Protestants arrest their perverts 90% of the time, none of the RCC priests have been arrested, with over 75 seperate Priests in the Boston area alone that that Cardinal covered up for!! And some people try to apply moral equivelancy??
To: big'ol_freeper
"Admition"?Oh brother! Ha Ha! Ho Ho! It is to laugh! You really did yourself in with that one! Poor little maroon!
BTW, it's "admission".
To: Starwind
Catholics possess the fuller Truth than other Christians, because we believe what has always been believed by the Church. This, when not found in the Scriptures, is known as Tradition. All Tradidition means is the teachings that have been handed down and preserved since the days of the Apostles. Most Christian groups ignore this Tradition, choosing, I believe intentionally, to position themselves directly opposite of the Catholic Church on these matters, likely just for the sake of opposing the Catholic Church.
But, even if we stick to Scriptures only, the Catholic Church is the only one that correctly interprets and applies the Scriptures to the faith. I know that sounds silly, considering that the usual accusation is that Catholics put the Bible second, but we are the ones that believe in the Sacraments as found in the Bible, that believe in the True Presence in the Eucharist, as mentioned in the Bible, among other things.
Basically, if you don't believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, you are going against the Bible.
To sum it up, Catholics believe there is one objective Truth. As you can tell, by the presence of thousands of exponentially expanding Protestant sects, with a not insignificant amount of them falling into actual heresy now, it seems Truth is made up as one goes or as they personally see fit.
To: RaceBannon
Do you get aroused by hearing about the misery of other religions? It's kind of sad in a way that you profit off the abuse of minors, with the glee you have as the Catholic Church has its problems.
To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
"to condemn our Christian brothers, who glory in the suffering of other Christians, and seek secular advantage from it. Their arrogance, pride, and hypocrisy are sins, and I was urging Catholics not to indulge in such sins when the attacks of our common enemies are again directed at faithful Protestants."
I'm not rejoicing at the news that the Catholic church is infiltrated with homosexual priests. I have a dear friend that was molested as an altar boy and has hated the church for over 45 years! I am rejoicing that God has revealed the sins that the Church body refused to handle. The Church is commanded to rebuke sin within the body and to remove any unrepentent believers.
As a Baptist I can tell you we handle things much differently (not to be mistaken for always being Biblically correct). As each So. Baptist church is similar to an independent franchise, with each congregation having independence to call their own leadership, we also determine when and how to remove/rebuke those that fall into sin. The Choir director having an affair with a pianist (very common) doesn't fall into the category of notifying the police. A pastor seducing a 15 yr. seeking counseling is another matter. A youth-pastor having an affair with a youth is another matter. In all of these cases the information would be passed along to the elected deacons (who usually serve for 1 year terms) and then there would be decisive action. None of us should rejoice when the church body is ripped apart, however, we ALL should rejoice when sin that has caused so much hurt is revealed and removed.
To: Conservative til I die
Thank you. I think I'll comment on a couple fundamentals and leave the more esoteric issues for another day.
Most Christian groups ignore this Tradition, choosing, I believe intentionally, to position themselves directly opposite of the Catholic Church on these matters, likely just for the sake of opposing the Catholic Church. Commenting only for myself and not Protestants at large, there is a partial truth in your observation. Yes I (and some others) ignore Catholic tradition. Simply because I wasn't raised up in it and my doctrine and kingdom understanding comes directly from scripture, sermons, and theological writings, but not from Catholic seminaries or masses, etc. Also, much of what transpires is partially or completely in Latin which I don't know. And then as it is Catholic and I don't (at present) perceive understanding Catholic traditions to be essential to my salvation or works, so I don't pursue it.
Does that place me in opposition to the Catholic Church? Well I suppose in areas of tradition it likely would. As an example I lurked on a Catholic thread about "Communion in the Hand". I don't understand the importance Catholics place on how the elements are received. In my understanding, if the believer knows what the elements are, receives them in memory, gratitude and submission to Christ, in sincerity, and given God looks to the condition of the heart, I wonder if Jesus is concerned about intinction or placed on the tongue, if I serve myself from a tray that is passed, etc. So I would expect that might place me in opposition if I were asked.
But I don't take up that position willfully for the sake of opposing Catholic traditions.
the Catholic Church is the only one that correctly interprets and applies the Scriptures to the faith. I know that sounds silly, No I doesn't sound silly to me. We all (somewhat in pride) would like to think our interpretations are correct. Obviously, if we thought them wrong, we'd research them and change to become correct (at least those of us who truly are seeking after the Lord's truth). But I think you would agree, there is a single absolute truth and it is God's truth, and we in our fallen state endeavor to understand God's truth, probably never achieving that, this side of Heaven.
I would agree that the Catholic Church does teach God's one truth on many aspects of scripture (I couldn't pick an example right now because in my ignorance, I don't know what the RCC actually does teach - most of the information about the RCC I've seen is about it's traditions, which as I've admitted, I don't know). But it would not surprise me to find a great deal of truth - God's absolute truth. But that does not mean that someone outside the RCC can't also understand and teach the exact same God's truth about any given aspect of scripture (leaving out traditions again).
The RCC does not have a monopoly on God's truth. To believe so, is to believe that God saves, justifies, regenerates and sanctifies believers outside the RCC (as he most clearly does) but then withholds from them a true understanding of His Word? Withholds the quickening of the Holy Spirit as a non-RCC believer studies God's Word?
I would disagree. I believe it is God's desire that all have true knowledge so that His people not perish for lack of same.
The last point I would make is that not all Protestants are hostile to the RCC, myself particularly. As an example, not yet here on FR, but many times elsewhere I have defended the RCC from the misguided accusation that the RCC is the Whore of Babylon. In part out of loyalty to fellow members of the body, Christ's bride and invisible church. But also because I believe it to be scripturally true and provable, i.e it's the Truth. The same Truth I suspect that the Catholic Church teaches.
To: rwfromkansas
Souther Baptists, the largest non-Catholic denomination in America, are not a heirarchical denomination. There is no Southern Baptist "Church." The Southern Baptist "Convention" which meets every year [this year in St. Louis] includes pastors and laypeople from individual churches.
The only people who can vote on items of business for the denomination are "messengers" elected by their home church. Pastors are usually among those elected, but a pastors vote carries no more weight than the vote of a 13 year old boy, if he [the boy] has been elected on of his church's messengers. Each church is allowed a maximum of 10 messengers.
If the pastor of some church is found to be a child molester, the local church takes care of it. The members of the church, including the family members of a molested person, would have a great deal of influence as to what then happens to the pastor. I know of no instance where such sexual misconduct did not result in dismissal by the individual church if they believed it to be true. It may have happened however somewhere down the line.
But each church owns its own property, writes its own constitution and by laws, and calls its own pastor. The denomination has no say in the matter. The only thing that could be done, if, as happened a few years ago, a church called a homosexual pastor, is the messengers might vote in their local county association, or state convention or national convention to "withdraw fellowship" from that church, and publicly state that the church is "not in friendly cooperation with our other churches. In other words, we would not accept their members into our church from that church unless they were repentant. But that church would have to deal with their own pastor, budget, property, members, etc.
There is no college of cardinals or bishops to move pastors around as Catholics [and Protestants like Methodists] do. Each church is autonomous. But messengers can elect representatives to fire seminary teachers or denominational employees for false doctrine, or moral and legal malfeasance.
Sometimes it works well. And sometimes vindictive people in a church will fire a good pastor, or will fail to discipline an ungodly church member. But that individual church and its members have to live with the consequences of their behavior.
If large percentages of church members disagree with one another on an issue, one group may "split", buy their own property and build a new church. If the new church agrees in polity and theology with Southern Baptist doctrine then the new church will be admitted to fellowship in the local association and national convention based on a vote of the messengers from the other SBC churches in the area.
If anyone is still reading this, at least you now know the difference between a heirarchical denomination, ruled from the top down, and a congregational denomination, ruled by the grass roots from the bottom up. The standard for all of these practices is to be taken from the Bible which is the only recognized ultimate authority in SBC life.
Comment #139 Removed by Moderator
To: big'ol_freeper
I checked out most of the list of Fundies you provided.
In every single one, the abuser was was having big time legal problems, in jail, defrocked, etc.
All men in all denominations are sinful.
The issue has been how that sin is dealt with by the church. Potestent denominations by and large do not attempt to buy silence from the victims and then protect the sinner. This is exactly what the RC church was doing and that is exactly where the problem lies.
140
posted on
06/17/2002 2:52:24 AM PDT
by
Fzob
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