2 More Americans Arrested In Pakistan..Al Qaeda Related

FOXNEWS | 06-13-02 | my favorite headache

[freeperfromnj]

Anyone have a problem with that scenario???

Under normal circumstances I would most definitely have a problem with that scenario. Not in this case, however. Why can’t you see him for what he is -- a traitor who trained and collaborated with the enemy to commit a horrific act against his own countrymen.

[Lazamataz]

On the other hand, YOU people would have these people released just because the government hasn't personally laid all the charges against them, the physical evidence, witnesses and methods just for you. I have a problem with THAT too.

Correct. I would release any person that the government refuses to lodge a charge against. Color me kick-my-heels-up nutty, just crazy about the Constitution like that.

Contrary to your assertion, I am not asking them to lay out physical evidence, witnesses, or 'methods' (whatever that is) at this time. Those can be presented in a closed court session. All I am asking for is habeas corpus. Produce the charge or let him go.

I mean, it is Constitutional for the President to suspend habeas corpus during times of National Emergency. But I am not aware that President Bush has taken this decision at this time. Since he has not, the right to face your charge still is in force.

Bear in mind that Padilla was carrying $10,500 cash. Presumably he did not declare it. Transporting $10,500 into the country without declaring it is against the law. Why don't they just charge him with that? That would be sufficient to hold him.

They didn't even tell us they had him for a whole month.

[Lazamataz]

Under normal circumstances I would most definitely have a problem with that scenario. Not in this case, however. Why can’t you see him for what he is -- a traitor who trained and collaborated with the enemy to commit a horrific act against his own countrymen.

I can't see him 'for what he is' because all I have been presented is that the Federal Government has declared him to be a traitor. They have not charged him with the crime of treason. They have not convinced any judge or juror that he is a traitor. They are just holding him indefinitely with no indication they intend to charge him, and they make the assertion he is a traitor.

Do you believe anything the government tells you? Did you during the Clinton years? Just because Bush is in office -- and especially with all the Clinton-era holdovers -- do you believe that all of a sudden that it is 100% honest? Where is your healthy skepticism?

[John_11_25]

Anyone have a problem with that scenario??? I know I do.

Yes I do, but most people are caught up in the flag waving of war fever. The should read up on the British governments fiasco, where in a fit of panic and outrage for a bombings, these sentenced innocent people to life in prison where one of the died and 15 years later the rest were released as the evidence was made up and policeman and experts lied to get the conviction. (The Birmingham Six and The Guildford Four are the cases I am referring to.

The British were in exactly the same situation as the US. I have no problem locking someone up for ever, but immagine if it was your brother and he was innocent, but unfortunately people are not really interested in this unless it concerns themselves.

I do not know if anyone watched Fox news last night, but a lawyer trying to state the people were to be given legal representation was told he was disgusting and should be ashmed of himself for not supporting the government in a time of war, by the fox new reporter, he was almost verbally thrown of the air.

[Lazamataz]

most people are caught up in the flag waving of war fever.

Yes, and I am trying to break that fever and get people thinking clearly again.

I do not know if anyone watched Fox news last night, but a lawyer trying to state the people were to be given legal representation was told he was disgusting and should be ashmed of himself for not supporting the government in a time of war, by the fox new reporter, he was almost verbally thrown of the air.

People are utterly out of control right now. It is from such frenzies that Fascism and Nazism were born. People think it can't happen here. I am here to tell you it most certainly can, and I am beginning to think it is an eventuality, not a possibility.

[John_11_25]

People are utterly out of control right now. It is from such frenzies that Fascism and Nazism were born. People think it can't happen here. I am here to tell you it most certainly can, and I am beginning to think it is an eventuality, not a possibility.

I completely agree

You have a tough job ahead, as it's the US Media that is spreading the fire and the chief culprit together with the Defence industry and the only time you get a bit of independant common sense, is when you watch the BBC world service.

[Sabertooth]

I picked up on your sarcasm, it looks like some others didn't.

...We are seriously in harms way thanks in no small part to the Clinton naturalization scandal.

Well, while I agree with you, my sarcasm was primarily pointed at Republican acquiesance to the immigration and Illegal Alien free-for-all.

The term "future Republicans" is borrowed from wishful thinkers who've convinced themselves that a "go-along, get-along" approach to the Democrats' undermining of American laws and sovereignty will somehow guarantee GOP electoral victories in the future.

I've learned to expect callow treachery from the Democrats. I've voted Republican the last decade in the hopes of a better result.

[Lazamataz]

You have a tough job ahead

Hewing to the Constitution, and convincing other people to as well, has never been easy.

And I may fail. But when I am sitting alone in my cell, arrested by a Democrat administration for firearms possession and visiting 'insurgent' web sites like freerepublic.com, I will remember that I stood on the side of the Founding Fathers. I would rather fight for freedom and die than meekly submit to an unconstitutional police state.

[Sabertooth]

These would fit right in with the other Republicans who are attacking the infidel " President Bush".

Got any like that in your 'hood, bub?

Actually, I haven't been concerning myself with the issues that seem to burn in you.

I'm not aware that voting for President Bush, as I did in 2000, implies a loyalty oath to the man that makes him above all criticism.

[cake_crumb]

In many of these cases, the charges are being kept sealed for now...which is very different from the person not being charged at all.

[freeperfromnj]

Walker, Reid and Moussoui are being given due process in civil court. For the government to be using these unorthodox measures in Padilla’s case, I’d like to believe that they have some highly classified information related to the plot that they are not able to reveal in the interest of our national security. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until more information is revealed. And, no I don’t believe everything the government tells me - flight 587 for example.

[Sabertooth]

It appears a lot of these terrorists were allowed into the country by democrats, who opened the floodgates hoping the country's new guests would target Republicans at the polls, little caring that instead they'd end up targeting everything and everybody with bombs.

And what bold stands have the Republicans undertaken to counter these threats?

[Lazamataz]

In many of these cases, the charges are being kept sealed for now...which is very different from the person not being charged at all.

Not in Padilla's case. They are holding him, indefinitely, without any indication they intend to charge him.

I have no problem with the way they are treating Moussouai and Reid. They are treating both of them perfectly Constitutionally.

Padilla, however, is a born American citizen, being held in an Unconstitutional fashion, and in a manner that should frighten the hell out of all of us.

[Lazamataz]

Walker, Reid and Moussoui are being given due process in civil court.

I agree.

For the government to be using these unorthodox measures in Padilla’s case, I’d like to believe that they have some highly classified information related to the plot that they are not able to reveal in the interest of our national security.

The problem is, they are setting precedent. If they can do this here, they can do this in many other cases. We need to nip this in the bud.

I'm even suggesting to them a nifty way to stay Constitutional: Charge him on the money he was carrying. He had over 10k, and I am willing to bet money he did not declare it. That's against the law.

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until more information is revealed.

I'm not. I believe strongly in the right of a person to be charged or released.

[Sabertooth]

They didn't even tell us they had him for a whole month.

I believe there are aspects of this case that raise concerns. Not sure yet where I come down in this particular instance.

When they apprehend a guy who's a citizen but also an agent of a foreign conspiracy against which we're at war, there are some competing considerations, are there not?

On the one hand, we have the legitmate Constitutional questions you raised. On the other, we also have Constitutional obligations to provide for the common defense, and protect the country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Would handling the Padilla case in a normal criminal fashion possibly compromised the investigation into the conspiracy? Was there reasonable suspicion that compromising the investigation might facilitate a successful terrorist attack with a radiological bomb?

I don't honestly know, but I'm also not prepared to count those considerations as inconsequential.

We're fighting a war on our soil for the first time in well over 100 years. None of us has personal familiarity with conditions and stakes like these, and we're still working through what the differences ought to be between peacetime and wartime with a domestic front.

Keep rasing the questions you have, because however we decide, the merit thoughtful consideration.

[Sabertooth]

Actually they are your typical bigot Deformed Party losers who couldn't get over losing the election, so they decided to try the other side!

Time for you to get over with it!

Not really sure what you're trying to say, can you clarify?

[cake_crumb]

"I'm not aware that voting for President Bush, as I did in 2000, implies a loyalty oath to the man that makes him above all criticism."

I do believe that all the events concerning the prisoners today will begin coming out in the wash in a few months. Detainees who were released will REGALE us with their tales of woe and mistreatment.....

Within no more than two years, the first lawsuits for wrongful imprisonment will be filed against the government, with the probable inclusion of a class action suit demanding billions in reparations.

These things will occur no matter how careful the administration is, because out of hundreds, maybe even a couple of thousand detainees by that time, there will be one or two who fell through the judicial cracks and did turn out to be innocent.

At the same time, the TV "exposes" of Japanese interrment cams will be flooding the TV, to prepare the public for the media blitz.

Mark it on your calander. It WILL happen.

I don't blindly believe this administration is above reproach, but I have not lost faith that the intergity of this administration is light years beyond that of Emperor Krintong. Trials begin in September. The wheels of justice, even at their fastest, run slow. Until then, conjecture is conjecture and means no more than the baseless posturing of the defendant's lawyers.

It sad that so many of us on this forum don't even believe, and therefore cannot start with the premise that we are at war and the Justice Department is within it's rights in detaining certain individuals. Heck, even the Euro-whiners have been silent. Doesn't that tell us to watch closely, so we may decide for ourselves just how much of this stuff is real government abuse and how much is media hysteria-hype in order to get ratings and readers?

[elfman2]

” It's not polite to talk about people without pinging them to the thread. “

I think I disagreed with you over something in the last 2-3 days, but don’t recall what. There were a couple of psycos that I touched base with yesterday, and those were who I was referencing.

I’m not informed on all the legal intricacies, but I think that Congress gave the administration all the privileges to wage war without the burden of abiding by the rules of war, which were never envisioned for the WMD carrying, covert operations, terroristic, non-national and barbaric nature of our enemy. And now we have to act faster than we can make up rules.

Padella’s ‘enemy combatant’ status and lack of representation certainly gives one something to think about. I presume that you don’t so much have a problem with a foreign emery combatant of this nature being held on the government’s word in a foreign county, or perhaps even here. I’m guessing that you’re not one of these people who’re claiming that war must be formally declared and that the Geneva convention must be applied. I’m going under the assumption that you’re more concerned with the prospect of a suspension of habeas corpus for a citizen.

I think that Lincoln did this during the civil war, and there were some saboteurs in WWII that had this right overridden. I think that the Constitution gives only Congress the right to suspend habeas corpus, but either Lincoln or Roosevelt suspended it without specific authorization. I don’t know if that would establish any kind of legal president.

Despite being at least uneasy with Padella’s status, I can respect the overwhelming need to hold him in secret, considering our efforts to infiltrate his network and the unprecedented danger it represents. Should this kind treatment be widely institutionalized? Clearly, no. Is the current situation so unique, critical and isolated that I’m happy with bending the rules? Yes. Just like I’d hand down a guilty with no sentence to a man tried for killing someone who raped, tortured and murdered his little girl, I’ll accept a certain level of rule bending to manage a network of al-Queda determined to infiltrate our communities and unleash more WMD. If the rule bending is too great or mistakes are made, we'll do our best to deal with it the same way we would deal with the father on trial who killed the wrong person.

[Sabertooth]

I don't blindly believe this administration is above reproach, but I have not lost faith that the intergity of this administration is light years beyond that of Emperor Krintong.

Agreed. It sad that so many of us on this forum don't even believe, and therefore cannot start with the premise that we are at war

Also agreed. Among that number, on certain matters, I would count many in the GOP leadership and at the very highest levels of government.

We will be blessedly fortunate if what passes for security along our borders and with regard to our immigration policy doesn't end up biting us hard down the road.

The "Islam is peace" charade is another error that needs to be jettisoned.

[cake_crumb]

"Padilla, however, is a born American citizen, being held in an Unconstitutional fashion, and in a manner that should frighten the hell out of all of us"

Padilla had an immigration charge against him in Pakistan, and with the plans in his person when he was arrested on our soil, he's being charged with terrorism here. Just because the DoJ didn't give the specific charges to the media doesn't mean there are none. I smell an ongoing sting operation here and in Pakistan. The media will speculate on notheing (like the "hate crime" reported on Sunday which turned out to be a "domestic dispute" today) until the arraignments. Heck, even then they'll speculate.

FYI, Moussaoui's arraignment on consiracy to kill Americans charges doesn't even come up until October...the last hearing was because he didn't like his prison conditions....and he used it to fire his lawyers, who either are or are not fired now...hard to figure that part out.