Posted on 06/11/2002 10:12:35 AM PDT by thinktwice
Edited on 04/14/2004 10:05:12 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
In your June 7 editorial on the moving of the Ayn Rand Institute to Irvine ["Ayn Rand in O.C.''], you stated that you took issue with some of Ayn Rand's positions, including her ardent atheism. In today's world of terrorism and conflicts fueled by ardent religious beliefs, it would seem appropriate that you would take issue with ardent religious people, not with any atheists.
(Excerpt) Read more at ocregister.com ...
Read my post again; better yet, ask your mommy to explain it to you.
For a theist, a blade of grass is evidence of God's existence. Should you disagree with the observation that this amounts to evidence, feel free to check yourself into the looney bin like you would assign those who would disagree with you.
Exactly my point. For you, as a theist, me scratching my ass is "evidence" of God; to anyone else it's evidence of an itch on my part and lunacy on yours.
Can't or won't?
You've just gone from claiming that God does exist to deciding it doesn't exist. So which is it?
I worked with a Wiccan. She had faith in magic based on her experience with it. I don't believe in it (based on her definition) and therefore she didn't bother to explain it to me. I was the same when I was an atheist. Explaining God to me was a waste of time. They could tell me what God had done in their lives and that was understandable. But not everyone experiences God in the same way. You can't paint God.
What would Jesus say about them?
20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'--Matt 7:20-23
I cannot tell you what I don't believe in unless it has been defined. So don't put words into my mouth.
It isn't that I don't believe in God, it's that I don't and cannot believe in anything that has no definition. You judge atheists for not buying into something you yourself are not willing or able to define. Shame on you.
When you are willing to put the work in it, then it will be much more interesting to converse with you. You should at least do as much as understand and clearly communicate what you profess exists.
Nice strawman.
It's a good thing some of them knew how to write; otherwise how would we know that God was with them?
It would be ridiculous for science to be based on the assumption of miracles. I think, however, it is just as ridiculous for philosophy -- which objectivism is -- to be based on the instance of their impossibility.
I've pointed out the extreme unlikelihood of the accidental occurance of life. Arguably, it is an event which is mathematically impossible -- based on the age of the universe and the amount of events possible during that time.
Frankly, it is more rational to believe in miracles.
Then atheism is irrelevant to issues that are important. And if atheism as a belief ignores the universe, it has no logical foundation and is worthless.
[Western science] came to dominance because it worked. It purposely disregarded God and only looked to the observable universe for its subject matter. One can be an excellent scientist and be either a theist or an atheist.
Utter nonsense. It is a historical fact that western science flowered within the context of Christianity. You're simply wrong here.
I think the universe, on the whole, is very disordered.
Then you are again wrong and the physicists can prove you wrong. -- there are physical laws with which all of us are familiar.
My point about theists saying "God just is" is that this statement exhibits the same failure to think things through.
I did not make this statement and thus feel no need to defend it.
This notion is like the Terminator. It just won't die, no matter how many times you shoot it, blow it up, crush it, burn it, etc., it just keeps on coming ...
You seem to have this notion of a strand of complicated DNA just popping into existence out of random atoms scattered around the universe, but chemistry doesn't work like that. You start with an ocean full of organic compounds which form naturally (and which can be demonstrated to do so in the lab). Make that several oceans, because earth has lots of ocean. Carbon forms organic compounds very easily. You can't really prevent it. Carbon atoms are very promiscuous. They can naturally form long, complicated chains of organic molecules. Most of those chains are worthless, but you've got oceans full of this stuff, trillions of organic molecules drifting around, and you've got hundreds of millions of years to play with. That's billions and billions of potential combinations and re-combinations going on all the time, for millions and millions of years. Some compounds may have drifted in from comets, as they form so readily that we find them off the earth as well as here at home. It just takes one time that one of those already complicated strands combines with another and blunders into the configuration required to be a self-replicator. It doesn't pop into existence from scratch; it's assembled from pre-existing components (this is the point so often missing in the "life from non-life is impossible" math models). Then, before long, you've got oceans of self-replicating molecules. They bubble and boil and combine and re-combine for millions of years. It's not really inevitable that you'll get living material out of this organic brew. But it's certainly not impossible. And here we are. Ta-da!
Yes, atheism is a belief. It is the belief that there is no God. My post points out that the existence, orderliness and beauty of the universe argue emphatically that there is a God and that atheism is thus nonsense.
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