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Theory of 'intelligent design' isn't ready for natural selection
The Seattle Times ^ | 6/3/2002 | Mindy Cameron

Posted on 06/07/2002 11:35:28 AM PDT by jennyp

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To: Dimensio
I wish this was some kinda joke--tease!
81 posted on 06/07/2002 1:40:10 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: Alberta's Child
Oh, wait. That prediction turns out to be false. Sigh. Best we teach our children the truth. The evidence does not support the theory of intelligent design. We don't have to mention the "G" word. They'll know.
82 posted on 06/07/2002 1:40:54 PM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: f.Christian
You left off the ">"
83 posted on 06/07/2002 1:41:49 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Aquinasfan, jennyp
Quoting jennyp: "Aquinasfan, please tell me about my immoral behavior. What specific uncivilized, immoral acts do I enjoy doing [...]?" Aquinasfan: We're all waiting. Breathing heavy even. If you don't know, guess. But make it a really _detailed_ guess. Does she close her eyes when she's being immoral? Does her head kind of roll back in a sort of dizzy euphoria?
84 posted on 06/07/2002 1:44:02 PM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: Lurking Libertarian
. . . if you dig in East Africa, you find a long line of transitionals, from ramapithecus, to australopithecus, to homo habilis, to homo erectus to homo sapiens . . .

This would seem particularly strange. What you are saying is that all of these life forms existed over large parts of the world, but that East Africa was the place where the "evolutionary step" was made at every stage of evolution. If what you are saying is true, then I would have expected a little more randomness to this development.

As in: Ramapithecus first appears in East Africa, and spreads out over some area of the world over thousands of years. The group that lived in an area now known as France evolved into australopithecus, who then spread out over thousands of years. The "austras" who lived in Southeast Asia evolved into homo habilis, etc.

What is it about East Africa that made it the location of every major step of human evolution? If anything, I would have expected humans to "evolve" in areas where harsh factors such climate would require them to evolve simply to survive.

85 posted on 06/07/2002 1:46:14 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
I would also venture to predict that human beings will always be the most rational, intelligent organisms on the face of the earth. Though I'm not sure that's a principle of intelligent design.
86 posted on 06/07/2002 1:47:58 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
What is it about East Africa that made it the location of every major step of human evolution? If anything, I would have expected humans to "evolve" in areas where harsh factors such climate would require them to evolve simply to survive.

Among other things, interestingly enough...there's a natural nuclear reactor spitting out a constant stream of neutrons and gammas.

87 posted on 06/07/2002 1:48:13 PM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Alberta's Child
Comparing a flawed economic system like Communism to a theory of the development of organisms is a bit of a stretch. In fact, there is more than just a coincidence that Karl Marx and Charles Darwin were products of the same age.

The modern international free market economy is a marvelous, interconnected system. Yet if you remove only the electrial switches, the system will collapse. Or if you remove only the rubber products. Or if you remove all the receptionists. Or if you remove all the capacitors.

Or if you remove just one industry among the hundreds that make up the economy: Remove just the stockbrokers. Collapse. Remove just the package delivery services. Collapse. Remove just the gas stations. Collapse. Remove just the farms. Collapse.

The modern free-market economy is irreducibly complex. And yet, despite our great intelligence, no one person - indeed no one committee or soviet or economic design bureau - was ever responsible for designing the modern economy as it exists today. This in spite of the fact that several Communist countries destroyed themselves by trying to do just that. The modern free market economy evolved into its present IC state.

88 posted on 06/07/2002 1:48:51 PM PDT by jennyp
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To: Alberta's Child
I would also venture to predict that human beings will always be the most rational, intelligent organisms on the face of the earth

This has already been falsified: see cats.
89 posted on 06/07/2002 1:49:41 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Gumlegs
She had gams that went on forever ...
90 posted on 06/07/2002 1:50:23 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Alberta's Child
I would also venture to predict that human beings will always be the most rational, intelligent organisms on the face of the earth.

I don't believe that's true now.

91 posted on 06/07/2002 1:51:20 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Alberta's Child
I am running out the door (you have freepmail), but, very briefly, the climate in East Africa changed very radically from that of West Africa when the Great Rift opened, leading to the environmental pressures that forced ape-like creatures east of the rift down from the trees and onto two legs. They continued to evolve to better fit that changing environment. When those creatures eventually evolved enough to be able to compete in other environments, they spread out from Africa to the Middle East and Europe.
92 posted on 06/07/2002 1:51:21 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian
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To: Alberta's Child
Yes, but Darwin had a reason why he postulated organisms would be simpler the farther back in time one went -- it fit with his theory that all life came from a common ancestor. ID cannot make such a prediction, because who is to say the Designer couldn't have made complex critters first and simpler one later?
93 posted on 06/07/2002 1:53:45 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Junior
OK. So we have various species with features that date back to a common ancestor. All creatures with eyes can be traced back to a common ancestor, as can all creatures with wings, legs, gills, etc.

Why is it that there are numerous species that share all of these characteristics (eyes, gills, legs, etc.) living today, but for the characteristics that specifically define a human being (a bipod that walks upright, thinks rationally, shows emotion, etc.) there are no other species that share them?

94 posted on 06/07/2002 1:54:50 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Junior
... at least that's how it seemed when we went on dates. I didn't mind the way she went on and on, but when her gams started it got to be too much. The worst of it was, with her and her gams carrying on an endless conversation, I couldn't get a word in at all, much less one of my pity, sardonic quips. Finally, I couldn't stand it. I let my .45 carry my end of the conversation. I eat alone now, and I think I like it that way. The guards know when to shut up.
95 posted on 06/07/2002 1:57:23 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Alberta's Child
Explain why that's evidence in favor of intelligent design. I mean, what suppose it's more likely than not that an intelligent designer would only create one species that shows emotion, supposing for the moment that there is only one.
96 posted on 06/07/2002 1:57:49 PM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: VRWC_minion
Sorry, I don't respond well to magic Bible verses. Care to restate that in your own words?
97 posted on 06/07/2002 1:58:38 PM PDT by jennyp
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To: J. Semper Paratus
Intelligent design does NOT have to involve God, although theists can choose to place the intelligence in a deity.

What makes Intelligent Design so shaky as a theory isn't that it requires a deitic or non-deitic intelligence, but that there is no connection between the data and "intelligence". Until someone comes up with a mathematically rigorous algorithm for discerning "intelligence" in data, it is a worthless hypothesis. The very existence of an automobile in now way proves that it is the consequence of intelligent design. There are other unrelated scientific reasons we would probably find any other hypothesis to be statistically improbable, but those reasons are specific to the properties of the automobile which don't necessarily apply to anything else.

I personally am skeptical of ID claims for our universe and existence not because it is not possible that this is the case, but because there is no discernable separation of design or intelligence from everything else as a point of mathematical fact, so it makes anyone who claims to have such things a snake oil peddler or ignoramus.

When you can develop an objective algorithm for discriminating "intelligence" and "design" in an arbitrary set of data, then ID can become a solid theory. Since I can tell you right now this is mathematically impossible, you are left with demonstrating the existence of a Creator that is capable of what the ID theorists claim as that is the only avenue to theory-hood available to ID theorists.

98 posted on 06/07/2002 2:01:08 PM PDT by tortoise
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To: Alberta's Child
as can all creatures with wings, legs, gills, etc.

False. There is such a thing as "convergent evolution" -- Insect wings and bird wings are physically different, and have different origins within the organism, but they are functionally similar. This is true of bat wings, pterosaur wings, whatnot. The eye may have developed independently in several different lines of evolution -- however, as the common ancestor of eagles and humans had eyes human and eagle eyes can be considered to be products of the same evolutionary line.

99 posted on 06/07/2002 2:02:28 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Poohbah
But that's not only in East Africa.

Ironically, I could use East Africa as a perfect supporting argument in favor of human evolution, but in reverse. If humans evolve over time, I contend that they are more likely to evolve in areas where adverse conditions require a substantial adaptation.

A place like East Africa would never have required such adaptation. It is located in an area that won't have seasonal extremes because it is on the equator, and (surprisingly) much of the region doesn't even have harsh summer heat because of the higher elevations. Uganda probably has the most "perfect" climate in the world -- it is something like 70-75 degrees there every day of the year.

If I were to look at East Africa today in terms of its vital statistics, social order, etc., I'd say that humans have evolved there less than anywhere else on the planet.

100 posted on 06/07/2002 2:03:55 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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