Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
Look, God is not finished with Israel. Paul makes that very clear. However, it clear that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. The seed of Abraham is the church.
I am not saying that "Replacement Theology" is correct, but surely you can see whay someone might believe it.
I make my feeble efforts mostly because it doesn't seem like there's a very significant rising to the occasion on the part of others better able to do so.
It's not a value judgement, it is a statement of fact.
Opposed to Israel, or in place of Israel, is by definition, anti-Semitic. Sorry you don't like the term, I can understand why, it carries a lot of baggage with it.
Look, God is not finished with Israel. Paul makes that very clear. However, it clear that not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. The seed of Abraham is the church.
An unnatural, grafted in branch, not the tree itself. Or put another way, adopted sons, not natural children. We don't take the place of the true children, we were adopted to make the real children jealous.
I am not saying that "Replacement Theology" is correct, but surely you can see whay someone might believe it.
As best as I can tell, it is tradition mostly.
It is as common here on FR as in the real world, but most people in the real world don't share this view often, unless you ask them about it specifically.
I know anti-semitism when I see it. And you'll have to go to greater lengths to prove to me that Reformed eschatology is sytemically anti-semitic.
I do not believe that the church was God's Plan B, or that a saved, sanctified collection of Jews and Gentiles was somehow an unexpected development brought about only because Plan A didn't work out for God. I do not believe that the church is an accident. Indeed, I believe it is aholy priesthood and a chosen people.
It is as common here on FR as in the real world, but most people in the real world don't share this view often, unless you ask them about it specifically. But we are the threat to them, just see the thoughts expressed by the writer of the piece. To them, we're endangering the peace of the world by insisting that Israel is Israel and Jews are Jews.
I do enjoy the effect of holding the page-down key. Makes a lovely kaleidescope.
Yes, my definition is probably not the same as the common one. I don't believe that people who believe in Replacement Theology are necessarily prejudiced against Jews, but in my experience, when you question many (most?) who are prejudiced against Jews, they cite Replacement Theology to prove their points. Coincidence? I think not.
I do not believe that the church was God's Plan B, or that a saved, sanctified collection of Jews and Gentiles was somehow an unexpected development brought about only because Plan A didn't work out for God. I do not believe that the church is an accident. Indeed, I believe it is aholy priesthood and a chosen people.
Straw man arguments. I never claimed any of the these arguments that you oppose, so what is your point?
Good post! Yes we see the two sticks.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How can anyone claiming to be a Christian say that he loves God, but at the same time call Jews "Unbelievers" and worse or believe Christians have replaced Israel? He cannot do that and be a true Christian. He is deceived. It is an outworking of Antinomianism, the false teaching that one does not have to obey God.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
falling away: 646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
Excellent post. Yes. The warnings: Abide in me...continue in the Word...be fruitful...boast not against the branches...lest ye be cut off. Many didn't believe that and boasted. They fell for it. Fallen away. The false prophets denied the Word/Lord in Ro 11:25 and said one could not be cut off. The gospel is now hid from those who believed the false prophets. They went after them:
Lu 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
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Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And Now: blindness in part is happened to the CHURCH, as the fulness of the JEWS come in.
Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
> So are dispensationalists claiming that ethnic Israel repented of their sins in 1948 when they were made a physical, political nation by the UN? This is impossible, because the basis of repentance is faith in Christ, and the Jewish nation has as yet offerend no such repentance as a whole
> So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event?
Your entire argument hinges on your statement in bold type above. Let me turn that around and put it to you that your Messiah is identified in John chapter 1 as the Word made flesh. Now, if it pleased G-d to hide his identity from them for a time, might not He also have hidden from you how Israel gets saved? You might like to pray about that and see if light dawns in your understanding. Hint: read Romans chapter 11.
Just do a KJV search on the phrase "this generation". There is common theme. Heart condition: yetzer hara.
I'm happier when people who like colors read colors.
I'm a bit like the handicapped. . . features of my personality tend to weed out fickle friends.
Here's a wild and wacky thought..... Perhaps Jesus meant exactly what he said: "This generation." I don't think there is really any need to "construe" anything from the text. you are struggling to find a "plausible" interpretation because you are coming at it with the premillennialist preconception. Reading it any other way would disrupt your paradigm.
I don't claim to have all the answers, and I am still a rather new student of eschatology, but I have seen enough to know that dispensational premillennialism is full of holes. Every argument I have seen thrown out over the years never addresses the fact that Paul tells us that all believers are Abraham's seed and are heirs to the promise. Heirs to what promise? The promise God made to Abraham. We have been grafted into the vine. God never abandoned Israel. Israel is usthe church. The last I checked, Jesus was still the way, the truth and the life. The hope for the Jewish people, in both Old and New Testaments, is the same hope of the GentilesChrist the Messiah. The Old Covenant pointed to the one who would come. The New Covenant points to the one who has come and now reigns over his kingdom.
Pray tell, which specific Scriptural prophecies are unfolding in the morning paper?
It does exclude those Israelis who do not come to a saving knowledge of Christ. As Paul pointed out, "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Rom. 9:6b-7a).
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