[Asclepius]

... We are gradually shifting searches from the Fourth Amendment process to a secret court that is neither mentioned nor consistent with the Constitution ...

A little too gradually, I should think.

(Do secret courts have secret lawyers?)

[parsifal]

Good post. I suspect that the cradle-to-grave protect-us-at-any-cost class isn't going to care what the FBI, CIA, or anybody else does as long as we "feel" safer. That federal judge was right. Ashcroft is an idiot. parsy.

[hgro]

Legal scholar Turley likes to think he is the world's greatest living authority. I challenge that, I happen to think I am.

[WL-law]

If Bill Clinton had decared 'war' on islamic terrorists when he had the opportunity and a complete basis per the USS Cole attack, then maybe the analysis of the "rights" of foreign terrorists would have tipped in favor of actually PROTECTING the US citizens, rather than (as Turley asserts) the flimsy claim to 4th amendment protection that inures to an illegal alien (he had overstayed his visa, BTW).

[alpowolf]

This only further confirms what we already know. Federal "law-enforcement" (what a joke) does not believe that there should be any limit to their authority.

That's not the most depressing thing, it's to be expected. What's really depressing is the number of US citizens (including FReepers) who agree with them.

[Cicero]

Probable cause is always arguable, but from what I have seen of this case, there WAS sufficient cause to seach the computer. As I understand it, some of the clintonoids further up the chain of command within the FBI tinkered with the original application and omitted the most striking evidence, before passing it on to the Justice Department. In other words, they omitted the evidence that would have allowed a warrant to be issued.

Probable cause for a search warrant is not as strict as the kind of evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a jury needs to convict. It only needs to be enough to justify a search for further evidence--including some likelihood that such evidence will be found in the place to be searched.

As for protecting our civil liberties, the best way to do that is to have reasonable, responsible justices and an honest and competent FBI. Which is why the FBI needs a major housecleaning, which Mueller unfortunately is incapable of doing.

[Richard Axtell]

The entire political gambit that is now playing out before us is just another cynical hypocritical fraud, brought to you courtesy of the Democrat party. We are witnessing idiots like McKinney, Clinton, Nadler, and their sycophants in the extreme left of the press and academe continue to disemble and equivocate, mutating and redirecting their attempts to bring down Bush with the "Big Lie", by now focusing their mindless accusations on the faceless bureacracies of the FBI, and soon the CIA and the rest of the intelligence establishment. They desperately are attempting to smear Bush by pretenting that the history of terrorism against the US began January 20, 2001. But, they scream "Clinton Bashing" whenever a realistic factual account of the true history and origin of the intelligence failures they decry is brought up. Clinton more than dropped the ball in the "War on Terrorism." He failed to fight it, even while Americans were being killed overseas by Bin Laden's terrorist operatives. Now he lies about dropping the ball, and pretends to have actually scored fictional baskets with fraudulent spin about foiling terrorist plots, and pointing to his ineffectual attempts to criminalize the war by prosecuting the specific guilty terrorists as if they were lone operators. Crap.

The Rowley memo is being distorted way out of any realistic proportion by those seeking any kind of chink in the Bush political armor. Any similar "warning" or "clue" that comes to light will be similarly distorted, for the sake the Democrat Party's dream of any kind of political gain, by dividing the American public during time of war. The problems with the FBI and the our ability to forsee and prevent atrocities like the WTC attacks have been long present and institutionally ingrained to the point of absurdity, in the clarity of hindsight. The FBI was by charter created and limted to be a domestic law enforcement agency, not an anti-terrorist intelligence bureau. In fact, it has been deliberatly prevented from "spying" on Americans domestically, all in the name of Leftist Political Correctness. The CIA has been proscribed by Congress from offering just the kind of cooperation to the FBI and other governmental bureaus that cynical Democrat partisans call for now. But, don't you dare point out WHO put those shackles on the FBI, CIA, etc., that is needless "dredging up" of old controversy. More "Clinton bashing."

I was amazed today to see Diane Feinstein actually admit that the PC straightjacket that our intelligence services have had to wear up until the shock of 9/11 may have contributed to the now decried intelligence failure to forsee the WTC attack. The problem is even more than the calcified attitudes of career bureaucrats in the FBI and CIA, it is the fundamental way we think about the reality of the terrorist threat. I also witnessed former Assistant Attorney General Holder say ".. the world changed on September 11th." This was an attempt to dissemble and excuse the 8 years of blindness, cover-up, and inaction that were the feeble Clinton response to deadly terrorist attacks on Americans. Think about the previous statement. Of course the world did NOT change on September 11th, except in the sense a sleeper and a dreamer would experience upon waking to reality. This attitude is emblematic of the blindness of the diplomatic/intelligence culture of the US State Dept, DOJ, and Government as a whole. This was a self imposed blindness; using PC and geopolitcally inspired blinders left over from past years, and seemingly glued to our eyes, until they were literally blasted off.

Don't sit still for more of the coming political travesty. Don't get talked into Hillary's and Daschle's version of a media circus "blue ribbon" investigation, that is only focused on blaming Bush for 9/11, and somehow vindicating idiots like Cynthia McKinney and other lunatics. Don't even let conservative or normally moderate pundits talk you into such a joke of an investigation. It would be nothing more than a nostalgic trip down Watergate Lane for the Democrats, desperate for any kind of political issue to save their butts in November. It would be a media spectacle of wild accusations, innuendos and obfuscation, with leaks galore. Instead of getting to the heart of the problem, it would cover it up; and that is the failed foreign intelligence policies of many of the past administrations.

[marron]

This discussion of constitutional rights points up, to my mind, the need for a formal declaration of war.

Under the constitution, there are things that, thank God, the FBI simply can not do to a citizen. The rules are looser with non-resident, non-citizens, but there are limits even there.

But there is a term for emergency situations which civil law and criminal law are not adequate to deal with; the term for that is "war". In the situation of a direct threat to our survival, government and citizens cut to the chase, and deal with the threat by extra-legal means. That is what war is. No one reads anyone their rights, no one gets a jury of their peers, the 82nd Airborne simply deals with them directly.

But, under our system, to dispense with the legal protections of evil-doers requires a legal declaration of a state of war. To do what we are trying to do without that "finding" on the part of the executive and legislative branches is to tie ourselves in legal and constitutional knots that are unnecessary.

[Lessismore]

I think we should pass an ammendment to the constitution as follows:

No rights, priviledges, or protections whatsoever afforded by this Consititution shall apply to persons who are citizens of any nation other than these United States of America.

[Terriergal]

On Aug. 15, 2001, Moussaoui was arrested by the Immigration and Nationalization Service on a charge of overstaying his visa. At that time, the Minnesota office only had an "overstay" prisoner and a suspicion from an agent that he might be a terrorist because of his religious beliefs and flight training. If this hunch amounted to probable cause, it is hard to imagine what would not satisfy such a standard.

He was (technically) an illegal, not a citizen. I was under the impression that the Constitution was for US Citizens.

[Howlin]

What is astonishing is how little of her memo actually has been read or quoted beyond its most sensational suggestions

Oh, yeah. That's quite a surprise, isn't it?