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Berkeley s Radical An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson
Touchstone Magazine ^ | June 2002 | Touchstone interview

Posted on 05/29/2002 8:32:25 AM PDT by cornelis

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To: edsheppa
This is not correct. In the orthodox interpretation reality is ascribed only to the measurements - the mathematical structures and equations (read quantum states) are for computational purposes only and no reality is necessarily implied.

Acutally, that's exactly the point I was making. It has great explanatory power, but the 'reality' of it cannot be proved (i.e. we can't measure or detect wave functions).

81 posted on 05/29/2002 1:53:55 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: tortoise
Also, when they talk about information theory they tend to mix the Shannon concept with the Kolmogorov-Chaitin concept as it suits their purpose.
(An article that adresses this is on the Talk.Origins FAQ)
82 posted on 05/29/2002 1:55:44 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: general_re
If you like. But you should know - it doesn't have a happy ending...

You could say as much for a lot of these threads.

83 posted on 05/29/2002 1:56:18 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs
Dying-of-cancer bump.
84 posted on 05/29/2002 2:04:53 PM PDT by general_re
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To: general_re
Great ... now we're posting tumors.
85 posted on 05/29/2002 2:09:00 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: yendu bwam
Acutally, that's exactly the point I was making. ... the 'reality' of it cannot be proved...

Unless I'm mistaken, your point assumes that the reality of "it" (e.g. quantum states) is assumed in the theory but is unprovable/unverifiable. In fact that reality isn't assumed at all - the experimental preparation and measurements are real but the states aren't (necessarily). At least that's the orthodox position; there are others like many worlds or Bohm's carrier waves that have a different twist.

86 posted on 05/29/2002 2:16:56 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: mattdono
Lastly, please remember that Socrates himself was "crucified" (in the mortifying the flesh sense) by being forced to drink Hemlock.

I don't know what he drank, but considering his description of the symptons, Socrates did not drink hemlock.
87 posted on 05/29/2002 2:20:26 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: yendu bwam
... imaginary numbers which cannot be actually directly shown to exist...

Well, (Do not try this at home) if you stick your tongue in a light socket, the part that stops your heart is the real part; the imaginary part knocks your teeth out.

88 posted on 05/29/2002 2:24:23 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Gumlegs
"It's not a tumor!"


89 posted on 05/29/2002 2:24:38 PM PDT by general_re
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To: Doctor Stochastic
It's the lack of determinism that seems to bother the anti-science crowd.

Most major religions do not teach determinism. Christianity posits that man was created with free will - something not possible in a deterministic world (though the illusion of free will could be). If you are referring to Christians as 'the anti-science crowd,' then you're off the mark.

90 posted on 05/29/2002 2:28:29 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: Doctor Stochastic
It's the lack of determinism that seems to bother the anti-science crowd.

Your point? If any?

91 posted on 05/29/2002 2:30:56 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Well, (Do not try this at home) if you stick your tongue in a light socket, the part that stops your heart is the real part; the imaginary part knocks your teeth out.

Whoops! Mistake. I meant to post in reference to the above... Your point? If any?

92 posted on 05/29/2002 2:32:18 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: edsheppa
Unless I'm mistaken, your point assumes that the reality of "it" (e.g. quantum states) is assumed in the theory but is unprovable/unverifiable.

No, you are mistaken (but could easily be my fault)... What I said was that quantum theory provides explanatory power, but that quantum states (i.e. uncollapsed wave functions) cannot be directly shown to exist - thus I agree with you. I do NOT assume the reality of quantum states.

93 posted on 05/29/2002 2:35:06 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
My point is that imaginary numbers have as much existence as integers. Both were invented to solve problems that people had a need to solve.
94 posted on 05/29/2002 2:37:50 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: yendu bwam
Thank you for pointing out the distinction between determinism and free will and also for pointing out that Christianity teaches free will. I had thought those things widely known among educated people, but apparently I was wrong. Christianity is quite compatible with the scientific method, but prejudices die hard.
95 posted on 05/29/2002 2:41:07 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: edsheppa
What's interesting is that all of reality (as we commonly think of it) is, according to physics and quantum mechanics, built upon the interference of probability waves (wave functions) whose existence we cannot prove (only infer). The same goes for God. Many infer God's presence, though they cannot prove his existence.
96 posted on 05/29/2002 2:44:06 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: colorado tanker
Christianity is quite compatible with the scientific method, but prejudices die hard.

Yes, it is. And yes, they do!

97 posted on 05/29/2002 2:45:14 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
I do NOT assume the reality of quantum states.

And how do you explain Aspect's experiments? Aspect's stuff shows non-classical correlation. How do you derive (or explain) the actual results without resorting to the wave function?

For example, take three polarized lenses (sunglasses are a good source); look through two of them and rotate one until no light is transmitted. Then put the other lens in between. How does the light get through now? Hard to explain without non-collapsing wave functions.

98 posted on 05/29/2002 2:48:01 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Doctor Stochastic
My point is that imaginary numbers have as much existence as integers

Are you a die-hard Platonist? To predicate existence is otherwise than simply saying numbers are real. Kant pointed out that the predication of existence to the concept of number adds nothing. This is why we can speak of mental concepts as being existentially neutral.

99 posted on 05/29/2002 2:52:45 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: Doctor Stochastic
My point is that imaginary numbers have as much existence as integers. Both were invented to solve problems that people had a need to solve.

In science, those things which are modeled with imaginary numbers (such as wave functions in quantum mechanics or time-like intervals in relativity) are things which cannot be proven to exist through direct experiment. In basic alternating current electronics, imaginary number equations of the type 'e' to some imaginary number x t power are used NOT in that way, but as an expedient approach to differentiating difficult sin and cos equations. Imaginary numbers in that case do not model electrical phenomena (because only the real part of those equations apply to actual electrical phenomena). If you don't believe me, take out your Feynman lectures. There is a fundamental difference between the two. My point again is that in both quantum mechanics and relativity (the two theories which provide the most explanatory power to date in science), imaginary numbers are used to model the most basic parts of these theories. And in each case, no direct scientific or experimental contact with those parts of the models can be made. Again, basic reality, as it is currently modeled, is actually NOT something that can be touched on by science. (Only inferred.) Surprising, isn't it? And my other point was that religious belief is similar in that way.

100 posted on 05/29/2002 2:54:17 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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