Posted on 05/27/2002 7:44:48 AM PDT by Slam
It seemed to me that some of these bad trips for Seals and other Spec Ops would have been better served by Airborne troopers with more fire power and more men trained like airborne troopers.
The Marine version of airborne would have been better than the Seals in these situations as you pointed out.
I can remember hearing stories of Navy Brass refusing to give Army Spec Ops rides on Navy ships for missions. Then, the Army Brass not giving seals and marine raiders rides on their helicopters or airplanes capable of bringing in a small fighting force. Then, the Air Force developing its own Spec Ops so not to deal with Navy, Marine or you guys.
Re the snipers. I never meant that they were the ultimate, just that they like Airborne seem to be discounted for be so effective due to better training of good men, that the brass would hide their accomplishments to get bigger budgets often for expensive and not all that effective war toys.
Yes,but I was also Special Forces.
It seemed to me that some of these bad trips for Seals and other Spec Ops would have been better served by Airborne troopers with more fire power and more men trained like airborne troopers.
Yup,either FMF Marines or army Airborne or Rangers. Stuff like this is their sole reason to exist,and nobody in the world is better qualified to run missions like the ground assault the SEALS were sent on in Panama. And this is taking nothing away from the SEALS,either.
The Marine version of airborne would have been better than the Seals in these situations as you pointed out.
The only USMC airborne unit I'm aware of are the Force Recon Marines,and there just ain't enough of them to run a op like that by themselves. The USMC has some perfectly fine helicopters though,and they would have worked just fine to land the FMF Marines close to the objective.
I can remember hearing stories of Navy Brass refusing to give Army Spec Ops rides on Navy ships for missions. Then, the Army Brass not giving seals and marine raiders rides on their helicopters or airplanes capable of bringing in a small fighting force.
This has nothing to do with inter-service rivalery,and everything to do with the hatred conventional forces feel for unconventional forces. The SF camp at Lang Vei in VN was overran by the NVA because a USMC General refused to send a relief force to help them fight off the NVA. Westmoreland had to personally fly to Da Nang and pretty much order the USMC to even provide helicopters to a volunteer SF relief force to land after the camp had been overrun to try and rescue survivors. The USMC General has been quoted as saying "Those people aren't worth losing the life of one Marine over."
Then, the Air Force developing its own Spec Ops so not to deal with Navy, Marine or you guys.
I never heard this. I even had some Force Recon guys come in on my side and back me up when I was jumped by a group of regular Marines outside a snack bar on Okinawa. Every one of the Spec Ops guys I have ever ran across were always more than happy to work together and help each other out,regardless of service branch. No exceeptions.
Your repsonse, I never heard this. I even had some Force Recon guys come in on my side and back me up when I was jumped by a group of regular Marines outside a snack bar on Okinawa. Every one of the Spec Ops guys I have ever ran across were always more than happy to work together and help each other out,regardless of service branch. No exceptions.
I should have been more specific. I meant the Air Force Brass not the guys in their spec ops units, the guys like you. The problem that I heard about was strictly the Brass in the Air Force like that POS Marine General in Nam you cited, (below your quote).
Thanks for your first hand input on these issues and discussions. Do you have any feelings about where things are heading now with our current spec ops guys from all services in our new war, Hopefully inter service battles like this incredible bad action by the marine general that you cited are history and will not be tolerated: The SF camp at Lang Vei in VN was overran by the NVA because a USMC General refused to send a relief force to help them fight off the NVA. Westmoreland had to personally fly to Da Nang and pretty much order the USMC to even provide helicopters to a volunteer SF relief force to land after the camp had been overrun to try and rescue survivors. The USMC General has been quoted as saying "Those people aren't worth losing the life of one Marine over."
I am an admirer of Sgt. Hathcock and have read a fair amount on his accomplishments. I know about his "remodeled" .50 BMG hit but wasn't his main sniper weapon a Remington 700 BDL customized to a degree with a heavier barrel and a strange looking extra long relatively small tube optics? I'm asking this as I research my own question, I could be mistaken. I know a former Marine Nam sniper (2 tours) who owns the best gun shop in Jackson Mississippi and I know he shot a Remington over there for 2 tours.
Iceal Hambleton from BAT-21 fame was rescued by SEAL Lieutenant Thomas R. Norris. Lt. Norris went in with two ARVN soldiers (one of which bailed on the op) and came out with Hambleton on his second attempt.
Norris was awarded the MOH for his efforts...
The unique part is later in his tour, Lt. Norris was rescued by another SEAL, Engineman First Class Mike Thornton. Thornton was awarded the MOH for his actions.
It was the first instance of someone winning the MOH while saving the life of another MOH winner.
I think they will get more "use" than ever,and that they are mostly up to the challenges. These guys are better trained and in MUCH better physical shape than the guys of my generation were. Many run marathons or play on mountain bikes for fun,take vitamins,eat only healthy foods,etc,etc,etc. Most of the guys of my and earlier generations trained on young hookers and old whiskey when off duty. Sometimes even when on duty.These young guys also have a spirit that won't quit,and they are getting the only thing now they were lacking before,"real-life" experiences. These guys are no do-do GOOD!
Hopefully inter service battles like this incredible bad action by the marine general that you cited are history and will not be tolerated:
We can always hope. I can't focus on that too much or I get so mad I start to go blind.
No. He carried and shot a Model 70 Winchester,as did a lot of other snipers. I got the GENERAL sense that the USMC guys had a choice and mostly went with the Model 70's,and the army guys mostly went with the 700 Remington. I MUCH prefer the Model 70 myself.
And he richly deserved it.
The unique part is later in his tour, Lt. Norris was rescued by another SEAL, Engineman First Class Mike Thornton. Thornton was awarded the MOH for his actions.
Thanks. I didn't know that.
Stay Safe !
My younger son, just Joe Citizen, rides a mountain bike each morning to work on a 12 mile route instead of a direct 2 mile route. Then he rides a 16 mile route from work to home during the daylight savings time. His concept of relaxing on his days off is a fourty to fifty mile ride in N. Oregon. I wouldn't ride a horse where he rides his bike. Then each hour during the day, he does push ups, set ups and a few weight things for his arm and shoulder strength.
Thanks for your personal feedback re the shameful ways our spec ops have been treated by the brass. Hopefully, things will change and continue to change for the better.
They are intimidated by them. Plain and simple. During my time in service, it was difficult to get a "good" mission (in training, of course) from the top brass because they are not sure of themselves in respect to the proper deployment and control of sniper teams.
Much of the snipers doctrine is not necessarily written in print. Officers are not taught sniper and countersniper tactics on a large scale like infantry tactics are. Therefore, when an officer is responsible for, say a large scale movement to contact (or whatever you would like to call it), he is very nervous about having very efficient sniper teams moving about. He cannot control a sniper team like he can an infantry platoon. Many time, he cannot communicate with them like he can a normal infantry unit. These and many other factors intimidate a lot of officers. Many worry that a two man sniper team may do something to compromise the entire mission, and subsequently hurting their career. Therefore, instead of putting a very effective tool of warfare to use, many officers would rather holdster them, thereby eliminating any chance of something beyond their control tarnishing their image to their superior officers. Not all officers are like this, just a lot of them.
If officers underwent more training of the effective deployment of sniper teams, and subsequently deployed them to do what they do best, I know for a fact that a whole lot less of our boys would come home in bags.
What should he have done?
Bear in mind that Khe Sanh was under attack at the same time. In less than an hour air support including Spooky was on the scene and Khe Sanh artillery had already been called in.
If the SF's LAWs had not malfunctioned, they could have killed the tanks.
Westmoreland had to personally fly to Da Nang and pretty much order the USMC to even provide helicopters to a volunteer SF relief force to land after the camp had been overrun to try and rescue survivors.
Westmoreland was already in Da Nang before Lang Vei was attacked.
The USMC General has been quoted as saying "Those people aren't worth losing the life of one Marine over."
Are you sure about that?
Who was it?
He should have sent a relief force,or at least air support.
Bear in mind that Khe Sanh was under attack at the same time.
Khe Sanh was never in any danger of being overrun. There were SF teams from CCN flying in and out the whole time the seige was going on,running recon missions and finding targets for the Marines.
In less than an hour air support including Spooky was on the scene and Khe Sanh artillery had already been called in.
No,this was what the USMC General was refusing to release. He wanted all these assets held in reserve in case he needed them.
If the SF's LAWs had not malfunctioned, they could have killed the tanks.
HorseHillary! Soviet tanks have never been knocked out with a LAW. The ones they had were in perfect operating condition,they just weren't up to the job.
Westmoreland was already in Da Nang before Lang Vei was attacked.
That's not what it says in the history books on Lang Vei that I have read.
Are you sure about that? Yes.
Who was it?
I can't remember his name.
Air support was sent as I wrote earlier. Review the AA Report.
Khe Sanh was never in any danger of being overrun. There were SF teams from CCN flying in and out the whole time the seige was going on,running recon missions and finding targets for the Marines.
We are talking about sending a relief force out at 0100 while the base at KS was under artillery bombardment. The intel was so screwed up that there was no way the base commander knew what the hell he was facing. The contingency plan called for 2 grunt companies to be deployed to Lang Vei. Problem is that an NVA regiment had been emplaced between KS and the Lang Vei camp since that plan was drawn up.
No,this was what the USMC General was refusing to release. He wanted all these assets held in reserve in case he needed them.
Review the AA Report.
HorseHillary! Soviet tanks have never been knocked out with a LAW. The ones they had were in perfect operating condition,they just weren't up to the job.
Many Soviet tanks were killed with LAWs in Vietnam. The PT-76s at Lang Vei had only ½” armor max.
That's not what it says in the history books on Lang Vei that I have read.
When the commander of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, General William C. Westmoreland, who happened to be in Da Nang at the time for a conference, learned of the fight and the marines' decision not to risk a relief force, he directed the marines to supply enough helicopters for a fifty-man mobile strike force under Special Forces control. He also directed Col. Jonathan F. Ladd, commanding officer of the Special Forces Group, and Maj. Gen. Norman J. Anderson, commanding officer of the 1st Marine Air Wing, to develop a rescue plan.
I can't remember his name.
Could you check on it? I'd like to know who this disgraceful bum was.
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