Requiem for a Sniper

The Arizona Republic; Arts & Ideas Section, Page: E16 | March 14, 1999 | Stephen Hunter, Washington Post

[Grampa Dave]

You replied, the reported rules of engagement during the assault on Noriega's private escape pod were a prescription for mayhem and tragedy raining down on -- once again -- our SEALs. Your suggestion that the SEALs were set up (by jealous "Brass?")in Granada and/or Panama is indeed chilling but, I pray, entirely outside the realm of possibility...

Maybe Travis can take a break from his current project and comment on Panama and Granada and the problems the seals ran into with the tactics of the Brass that put them into harm's way.

[Travis McGee]

In Grenada members of ST-6 were attempting an admin linkup with US naval forces already in the area by conducting a water paradrop with gear and boats from a C-130. It was not a "combat jump" or an insertion. They went out into the big swells and hard trade winds of the eastern Caribbean and were not seen again. Who screwed up is a matter of debate, but it sure wasn't like what they were used to training at the mouth of the Chesepeake Bay!

In Panama, the mission to destroy Noriega's personal "escape" Learjet with standoff weapons was changed to capturing the jet for use by the next president. The SEALs' screwed up modified plan was to cross an open runway, "hoping" not to be noticed. Instead they ran right into some of Noriega's hard corps personal guards well armed with belt fed weapons etc. Most folks blame the SEAL Team (deleted) CO for accepting the mission change, and not just saying "screw you" to whatever dips#!t State Dept type who thought that capturing the Learjet intact was worth changing the mission.

[Grampa Dave]

Thanks, Travis! For taking a few minutes from your project.

I prefer to go to someone who knows and whom I trust on situations like this than to speculate. Thanks for your insight as usual.

Tracer, please read Travis's reply #62 for the real insight to what we have been discussing.

[tracer]

Thanks for confirming that, at least on rare occasions, a story or two released to the sheeple by the DOD and variously reported/portrayed by The Media jibe with an insider's account.

The $64,000,000 question is whether this area of concern still is SNAFU. Lock, load, and pray....

[tracer]

BTW, Travis, good luck with your project. I look forward to reading it when it hits the street/web.....

[Travis McGee]

Thanks for the encouragement. I now plan to self publish a few thousand 5" x 8" soft cover "trade paperbacks" instead of trying for an initial NY publishing house contract, which under the best circumstances takes a year or more to have a book hit a shelf, if one can even find a house to read it much less approve it.

[sneakypete]

The MOH should ONLY given to those who commit acts of supreme bravery with no consideration given to their own safety.

I agree. Let the MOH be the one thing left in the world where standards are maintained to acheive it.

[jo6pac]

Here is another American Beauty I came across this morning: "In the summer of 1969, Kerrey learned that his role in the firefight at Nha Trang had earned him a recommendation for the Congressional Medal of Honor. His SEAL team had put him in for a Silver Star, but his nomination had been upgraded."

[lodwick]

bttt

[sneakypete]

One Marine Major or Captain in the field with 5 to 10 Sniper teams was a very effective way of destroying the field command leadership and a lot of NCO's of the enemy.

Don't believe all the propoganda being "sold" here about how effective snipers are. If you listen to these people,most will be wanting you to believe all the Germans had to have done to stop our invasion of Europe was have a couple of hundred snipers in place. It doesn't work that way. A sniper IS a effective tool if he shoots once and dissapears,but if he shoots much more than that,he is worm food for any competent and determined enemy who starts to mortar or hit his position with air strikes as they manuever to flank him.

Snipers have a "romantic image" in America,as we see ourselves as a "nation of riflemen" who are prepared to face the enemy alone if neccessary. The truth is they are only good for targeted "hits" and for harrassment purposes. The snipers in VN got so many "kills" because they were free to shoot ANYBODY at ANY TIME who was walking around in desiginated "Free Fire Zones". This included women and children,as well as papa-sans taking a shortcut to another village,and these CIVILIANS kills became a part of their legimitate "score". Snipers mostly piss-off regular military forces,and "yes,I HAVE been shot at by snipers."

[sneakypete]

I felt that both in Panama and Grenada our Seal Teams were put into bad situations.

It was worse than that. Was was done with them borders on criminal in MY opinion. SEAL teams are NOT combat infantry assault forces,and should have never been used as such.

Were those seals placed there to be harmed by those who were jealous of their real potential?

No,it was even sillier than that. They were wasted (yes,a correct word for what happened) merely because the Navy brass wanted a "piece of the combat pie" and bragging rights when time came for a new budget. Never mind the fact that what they were ordered to do was rightly a job the USMC were far better qualified and trained to accomplish.

[sneakypete]

Travis,what about the SEAL landing on a area marked on the map as "Sea Snake Beach",or some similiar name? I also heard that some of the sea-insert SEALS were fried when a Admiral ordered active sonar and other electronic devices utilized while they were in the water near his area. Any truth to all this?

[sneakypete]

His SEAL team had put him in for a Silver Star, but his nomination had been upgraded."

Yup,the Navy needed a hero,so they made one.

[Starwind]

A sniper IS a effective tool if he shoots once and dissapears,but if he shoots much more than that,he is worm food for any competent and determined enemy who starts to mortar or hit his position with air strikes as they manuever to flank him.

Your point seems so common sensical, but all the news reports tend to imply snipers were so good at concealment (and silencers?) that they could operate for a while.

Did you read and do you have an opinion on the reports from Op Anaconda (or maybe is was Mtn Lion) in Afganistan of the 4-5 Canadian snipers pinned down high in the mountains...but they shot their way out/or held out til extracted? (Its been maybe a month, and I've forgotten some of the details). I'll try to find the post if you don't recall.

[M Kehoe]

Bttt.

5.56mm

[Shooter 2.5]

"To gain the most financial assistance from his necessary retirement, Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock was placed on the retired rolls just short of his completion of twenty years service.
There have been misunderstanding about Carlos's retirement, and some believe the Marine Corps was short-sighted and uncaring in not letting their undecorated hero complete his twenty years active service. That was not the case, and Carlos and Jo understood. To gain one hundred percent disabilty, Carlos had to retire when he did."-White Feather, Norman Chandler

[glc1173@aol.com]

"Maybe the present administration would have another look?"

Only in America does a decorated war hero who saved the lives of countless fellow Americans go unrecognized while a draftdodger who led antiwar protests against his own country during that war end up Commander-In-Chief.

[Travis McGee]

/1/ I never heard of a "sea snake beach" incident. I know of several incidents where SEALs found themselves amidst 100s of large sharks, but never heard of any SEALs eaten.

/2/ It's a myth that sonar pinging harms divers. I have been in the water very close to pinging sonar, it's just a loud ringing "PING" sound. No big deal. In Beirut we had any destroyers in the area ping, but only to frighten the potential swimmers. (We spread false rumors that it would sterilize divers.) We also tossed 2.5# socks of C-4 off our fast boats every few minutes all through the ship anchorage, again, the odds of hitting a diver were negligible, it was mostly a scare tactic.

[sneakypete]

Did you read and do you have an opinion on the reports from Op Anaconda (or maybe is was Mtn Lion) in Afganistan of the 4-5 Canadian snipers pinned down high in the mountains...but they shot their way out/or held out til extracted?

I vaguely recall it,but they had advantages that Hathcock and the other VN snipers didn't have. They were using dedicated 50 caliber sniper rifles,shooting with a elevation advantage (a BIG advantage!),and were shooting over open space with little cover. The guys there were shooting at were armed with inaccurate assault rifles with a real-life maximum accurate 200 yard range,and the Canadian snipers could pick them off 800 yards before they got that close.

On the other hand,unless he was assigned somewhere in the Delta or some other place where there were wide-open spaces,VN-era snipers didn't get long shots. In the actual jungle,20 feet is a long shot,and the people you are shooting at CAN tell the general direction you are shooting from after your first shot. This is true even if you are shooting a suppressed weapon. If you screw up and make the second one without shifting position,you are a dead man. You just don't have the advantages sniping at short range the long-range sniper has.