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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner

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To: varina davis
As one Virginian expressed it: They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence. Succinct.

Succinct, but not true. Gettysburg is a prime example. In each and every battle, victory on either side was determined by the better general combined with the state of his troops moral and confidence. Early in the war this fell mostly to the Confederates. Later, as the Union fielded better Generals and the troops gained confidence in them the tide swung.

721 posted on 05/30/2002 1:57:04 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Twodees
No, neither amendment contains any reference to the "rights" of the federal government. Rights are only mentioned as belonging to the people. Powers are delegated to the federal government by the people through their states via the specification of those powers in the Constitution. Rights are the sole province of the people. What you're doing here is like a four year-old pointing out what she sees in a cloud and insisting that everyone else must see it as well. The plain language you posted refutes your claim. There is simply no way to read: "The powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the people" and then to claim that for a state power to be valid, it must be enumerated as you are doing in reference to secession.

I see where you are coming from.  You are picking nits when I am using rights vice powers.  And literally you are correct (although a case could easily be made that with certain powers come certain rights).

The 10th amendment makes reference to federal enumerated powers when it says that all powers not delegated to the U.S. by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states...

Now to pick nits with you, show me where in the constitution that said powers are delegated to the federal government via state governments and the people.

While the 10th amendment does not list enumerated federal powers, they surely make reference to them.

So, according to Article VI, clause 2 and the 10th amendment of the Constitution, any powers reserved to the federal government trumps any laws made by the states.  Period.

This is really bizarre the way you have actually posted the text of Article VI and of the 9th and 10th amendments and are now pointing proudly at them and assuring me that their plainly worded language says something else entirely from what my eyes can see. I'm to trust you instead of my lying eyes, huh? I urge you to seek professional help before you snap and kill us all.

Can I help it if you can't read plain english?  Take a deep breath, and try to read article VI, clause 2 and the 10th amendment again.  If you can't read, get someone else to do it for you.  Read very carefully, note the word "delegated" and "prohibited" in the 10th.  Note that the constitution takes precedence over any laws instituted by state governments.
722 posted on 05/30/2002 2:00:07 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
Once they ratified the constitution, however, everything in the constitution applied - including the supremacy clause.

I know of no instance where a legislature didn't accept the entire constitutional package (Texas tried, but failed).
723 posted on 05/30/2002 2:02:22 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
The clauses of the Constitution didn't apply to States that hadn't yet ratified, in 1787, and they don't apply to States that, sitting in convention as the People, exercise their Sovereignty which is certainly reserved under the 9th and 10th Amendments (but need not be explicitly reserved, because Sovereignty trumps all agreements) by taking counsel among themselves and seceding from the Union.

Sovereignty is only reserved under the 9th and 10th if you can ignore that pesky supremacy clause (since the constitution basically reserves sovereignty to itself - with the federal government as the enforcing agent).  So I guess that if you are willing to pick and choose which parts of the constitution to adhere too, that you would be correct.
724 posted on 05/30/2002 2:10:07 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: stainlessbanner
We did. Just look at the filthy, squalid, degenerate urban shitholes the "winners" hail from. Now they are pouring down South to make our beautiful homeland a mirror image of their stinking, crime ridden sewer.
725 posted on 05/30/2002 2:15:49 PM PDT by rebelsoldier
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Comment #726 Removed by Moderator

To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Note that the constitution takes precedence over any laws instituted by state governments

Only those made "pursuant" (as in "conforming to") to the Constitution. By your continued unqualified definition no federal law could ever be unconstitutional. Article IV, Section 1 requires that the acts of the states be recognized by all parties to the Constitution:

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.
The Declarations of Secession by the states were constitutional - unless you can cite something within the Constitution that prohibits secession. Which, according to Amendment X, means a posititve enumeration of a power specifically delegating the federal government the ability to prohibit secession, or or a clause that prohibits the states from seceding. Neither exist.
727 posted on 05/30/2002 2:38:16 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Non-Sequitur
They are all such a humorless lot.

Not all of us. From The Daily Picayune newspaper of Feb 27, 1864:

Omnibusters - The editor of the Richmond Examiner proposed that, since the repeal of the substitute law has forced into the army both fat and lean, the very heavy men, whose size incapacitates them for the infantry and artillery exercises, and whose weight would prove fatal to their horses should they join the cavalry, should raise a company of men weighing 250 pounds and over, to take the field in iron-clad omnibuses, and to be called Omnibusters. He argues that the size alone would have a very demoralizing effect on the enemy...

And part of another piece, in the vernacular (March 27, 1864):

At this juncture, in cums Mrs. Snittle, who kin lift 600 with old Podhammer on the top uv it, and it wuz no time afore she diskivered wat hiz bizniz waz. She turned read in the face. She said:

"Yoor goin to taik my furnytoor?"

"Certingly."

"And we air yoor slaivs?"

"Uv coarse."

"And you ken sell my children?"

"Natterally."

"And you kin maik me yoor conkebine?"

"If you wish."

"You old beast," shreckt the infooriated feemaile chattel, forgetin her normal condichun, "yu sell my babys, yu taik my furytoor; drat yu, I'll give yu sum uv it now." whereupon she hurled a chare, which laid him prostrait on the floor, when she pickt him up and slung him out the dore."


728 posted on 05/30/2002 3:19:03 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
Hmmm...I guess you just had to be there.
729 posted on 05/30/2002 3:45:43 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
;-/
730 posted on 05/30/2002 4:05:51 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Ditto
Naw, boy. I'm talking about that jug-eared little daddy's boy y'all worship. The one who's an 'all hat and no cattle' Connecticut yankee posing as a Texan. I think y'all call him "W". I call him Geedub Boosh, Vincente Fox's prom date.
731 posted on 05/30/2002 4:10:03 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
I regret having wasted my time on someone as obviously afflicted as you are. It's pointless for me to tell you that I am reading the plain English while you're busy huffing glue and talking about the groovy,far out emanations from penumbras.

This is a little over my daily limit of jabberwocky, son. I guess I'll have to shun you after all.

732 posted on 05/30/2002 4:16:32 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: Twodees
Have you been taking care of that old dog of yours, Twodees?
733 posted on 05/30/2002 4:17:54 PM PDT by ned
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To: PsyOp
Virginian expressed it: They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence. Succinct. Succinct, but not true.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion -- though it is incorrect. There were never better generals than Southern generals in the WFSI.

734 posted on 05/30/2002 4:40:16 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
There were never better generals than Southern generals in the WFSI.

Really? Then why didn't Lee win at Gettysburg? If he had listened to Longstreet, clearly a better general than Lee, whose tactical genius was exceededonly by his strategic stupidity, he would not have fought there. Numbers didn't decide the battle. Lee blew it. He committed bonehead errors born of arrogance and over-confidence - errors that were amplified by several of his "superior" subordinate generals he also believed their own press.

" I have carefully searched the military records of both ancient and modern history, and never found [ Ulysses S.] Grant's superior as a general." - Robert E. Lee.

I know Civil War Mythology is important to many Southerners, but are you going to contradict your greatest hero? I would suggest you read Nolan's Lee Considered. A work that is recommended by the War College.

735 posted on 05/30/2002 5:32:48 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
" I have carefully searched the military records of both ancient and modern history, and never found [ Ulysses S.] Grant's superior as a general." - Robert E. Lee.

Only a person of Lee's moral caliber and sense of humility and graciousness would make such a statement. A true hero and a true gentleman, of whom we may never see the likes of again.

736 posted on 05/30/2002 5:39:34 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
Only a person of Lee's moral caliber and sense of humility and graciousness would make such a statement.

So... he was just being polite? A gracious liar? Even I have more regard for the mans honor and integrity than that. Read Nolans book and any other's recommended by the war college. You see... the U.S. Military cannot afford to have officers who believe in fantasy, which is why, when they they do tactical studies, they must rely on fact and not mythology. They do not reccomend that their officers read mythology, becasue that gets people killed.

I have engaged in several military "tactical analysis'" of Civil War battles, Gettysburg being only one. Lee was near to a genius when it came ot on the ground tactics, but his strategic planning and foresight left much to be desired. Not only were Grant and Sherman up to his level tactically (I'll give the edge here to Lee), both were superior to him in terms of strategic thinking. Strategy, not tactics on any particular battlefield, is what won the war for the North. Longstreet knew this too, but was pilloried in the South after the war when he made the mistake of making his criticisms of Lee public (Pickett, who lost his division on Day three refused to blame Lee and turned instead on Longstreet). After the war the South needed its heroes, exalting Lee far beyond his due, and stiffling and destroying his critics that had done near as much. A practice that continues today.

737 posted on 05/30/2002 6:06:34 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
You are no doubt knowledgeable in tactical strategy, but fail to recognize strategies of the heart and of principle. It is a given that the South lost battles during the war. And part of that failed strategy is because the South was in a defensive mode from day one with never any plans to TAKE OVER anything! And everyone knows what constitutes the best defense.

As President Jefferson Davis so plaintively said: "All we want is to be left alone."

738 posted on 05/30/2002 7:18:45 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
but fail to recognize strategies of the heart and of principle.

I get it now. I'm just an ignorant yank that couldn't possibly understand the beauty of the antebellum southern way of life that was threatened by scurilous yankee insistance on following the legislative proceedures of the same Constituion those Rebel states ratified in the first place and later found to be too onerous. States rights over the democratic process and all that. Please.... the only Principle that mattered, the only right at stake, in spite of all the political rhetoric and attempts to obfuscate the issue (on both sides) was slavery. Pure and simple.

It amazes me when southerners who can see right through, and perfectly dissect, political spin when its on TV in the year 2002, become dumbstruck by the spin of their own Civil War (and long dead) politicians. I find it even more amazing when it comes from southern conservatives (I'm making an assumption about your political leanings here, so forgive me if they are incorrect), who don't seem to understand that they are parroting the same rhetoric of southern democrats who brought us the welfare state and near universal socialism.

While I will never deny any southerner the right to be proud of his state or the accomplishments of its soldiers and generals in the war, this blind devotion to the "rightness" of the Confederate cause and near religous adoration of Leaders like Lee, Davis and others is beyond me.

I have always stated that the Democratic Party was and still is a slave party (and the historical record on that is indisputable on the basis of fact). For any southerner that considers him or herself a conservative or Republican to mouth the lies of that party is a cognitive dissonance of collosal magnitude.

To me it is no different than when todays Muslims say they are against terrorism and suicide bombers, only to say "but" before launching into a rant on Isreal. No difference whatsoever.

739 posted on 05/30/2002 8:20:52 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp;varina davis
Strategy, not tactics on any particular battlefield, is what won the war for the North.

Strategy won? With all due respect, if the Confederacy had not had military leaders like Robert E. Lee, "Stonewall" Jackson, J.E.B. Stuart et al, the war shouldn't have lasted a few months. Robert E. Lee deserves to be exalted.

The Union had vastly superior numbers, almost every warship, munitions factory, the majority of idustrial capacity, medicines, food and other supplies, the federal treasury, a functioning government, and even limited prisoner exchanges/medical resupply to rob the confederacy of soldiers.

The Confederacy was blockaded at the outset to prevent food, medicine and anything from entering. Union ships quickly siezed important ports, or rendered them useless. The Confederacy faced overwhelming numerical odds (4-1), the destruction of food crops, the slaughter of her livestock. Women, children, old men - white and black - were left to defend their homes - and were attacked, raped, killed or simply left to starve. Entire cities were destroyed or reduced to ruins. The Confederates had nothing except honor and courage - the belief that their cause was just and worth dying for.

Instead of a ringing endorsement of the tactical superiority of union military leaders, it is a tribute to the leaders of the Confederate forces. Even with virtually everything against the Confederacy, it still took the union forces more than 4 years to defeat them, and even then it wasn't on the field of battle, but due to starvation and lack of supplies. Yankees are just torqued because they couldn't whip a bunch of farmers in a fair fight, and had to resort to targeting civilians to finally win.

My apologies Ms. Davis, please remember me to your husband ;o)

740 posted on 05/30/2002 9:40:47 PM PDT by 4CJ
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