Could the South Have Won?

NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

[wardaddy]

Well in Spanish it would be Besa Mi Culo more or less. In Portugese it would be Beja Meo Curo.....both I speak fairly well. Kiss my arse or more technically....kiss the geographic center and exit orifice of my rear end....is it that literal as well in 18th century French?

[wardaddy]

I agree....it's late...this dumb racist hick is going to bed...LOL

[wardaddy]

You are incredibly wise and astute for your years. Bragg was indeed one piss poor military leader. One wonders if the Tennessee theater might not have fared better (from our viewpoint) had Albert Sydney Johnston not been killed at the Peach Orchard at the battle of Shiloh Church. A.S. might very well have survived his wound had he noticed it and called for an available surgeon early enough before he collapsed from his horse.

A little synopsis of his death from www.swcivilwar.com:

There was also hard fighting in a peach orchard and Johnston himself led the final charge that drove the Union defenders out of it. Shortly afterward he was hit in the leg by a Yankee bullet which severed his femoral artery. Having sent his surgeon to tend to group of wounded Federal prisoners, he bled to death for lack of appropriate medical attention

It's comforting to see young folks with as keen a sense of history as yours are still around.

[varina davis]

Yet, in the midst of this critical food shortage, that same month, Mary Boykin Chesnut attended a party given by Varina Davis for the elite ladies of Richmond society in which the table fare was described as "gumbo, ducks and olives, supreme de volaille, chickens in jelly, oysters, lettuce salad, chocolate jelly cake, claret soup, champagne, &c&c&c." (31 January 1864 diary entry in Woodward's MARY CHESNUT'S CIVIL WAR). Several of those menu items were imported luxury items. Why didn't Lee take direct action in such circumstances?

Are you suggesting that Gen. Lee should have ordered his troops to storm the Confederate White House in Richmond and snatch food from the table of his president?

Is that what happened during the first revolution?

You are obviously learned, but also obviously totally ignorant of Southern culture. The fact that Southern leaders fought with honor is why their "cause" is preserved in the hearts of their descendants.

It's a Southern thing and some folks may never understand.

[rustbucket]

3-400 Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood at Fort Pillow.

You forget that soldiers die in battle -- Fort Pillow was a battle that the Federals lost big time. Claiming that that many Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood does not match what happened though I have no doubt that some, perhaps many, were killed as they tried to surrender.

Shortly before this battle, Negro troops reportedly fired on surrendering Confederate troops in Virginia. This incident was published (in the South anyway) in The Daily Picayune newspaper of New Orleans on February 9, 1864. They published a January 1864 letter of complaint about it to US Gen. Wilde, Commanding Colored Brigade, Headquarters Forces on Blackwater, Franklin, VA from CSA Colonel Joel R. Griffin. Perhaps this was one of the reasons Negro troops suffered so heavily at Fort Pillow. Negro troops were also reported to have been firing during the truce at Fort Pillow.

The Picayune reported the words of a Union captain captured at Fort Pillow: "Capt. Young, Provost Marshall, was taken prisoner, slightly wounded, and paroled the liberty of their camps, and allowed to see his wife. He says that our troops [the Federals] behaved gallantly throughout the whole action, that our loss [Federals again] in killed will exceed 200; he also stated that Gen. Forrest shot one of his own men for refusing quarters to our men."

New Orleans was run by the Federal Army at this point in time and so the Picayune would have been subject to their control. The Picayune is a good source of information compiled from other newpapers and sources from both North and South. The Picayune clearly labeled the sources of their information. In this case, Capt. Young's words were reported in the Memphis Argus. Memphis was also in Federal hands.

[justshutupandtakeit]

I have no questions that verse could answer. And certainly would not ask you if I did.

[Non-Sequitur]

I would say that it is your knowledge of history that is suspect, or probably just convenient. Those men were members of Company F, Second North Carolina Union Volunteer Infantry. They were in uniform and were POWs, not deserters, but Pickett hanged them anyway. They were serving with the Union Army in North Carolina, were captured in uniform, and should have been properly treated. But instead Pickett hanged them anyway. But what should we have expected from an army that shot black POWs out of hand as a matter of course; whose government's official policy was to sell black Union POWs into slavery and imprison their officers.

Anyway, you were also talking about conscription. Read William Davis' book "Look Away: A History of the Confederate States of America" for an idea of consctiption in the south. Even though 30% of the confederate army was drafted, and an even larger percentage were men forced to serve because their enlistments had been extended, Davis points out that opposition to the draft in the south did not come from mob rule, like the New York riots, but was organized by the very southern governors and legislatures that were supposed to be supporting the noble cause. Pickett hanged men in North Carolina. Did you ever wonder why? It's because it was North Carolina. North Carolina had a double distinction in the rebel army: it provided more soldiers than any other state in the confederacy, and it had more deserters from the army than any other state in the confederacy. Although North Carolinian disloyalty to the Confederacy was probably not much worse than in some other Southern states, it was publicly more pronounced. Governor Zebulon Vance, who led the state through most of the war, was an outspoken critic of the Davis administration. And the North Carolina Standard, one of the state's leading newspapers, was so well known for its opposition to the Confederate war effort that North Carolina soldiers came to blame it for the growing number of desertions. Even the North Carolina Supreme Court gave aid and comfort to those desiring to avoid Confederate military service. Chief Justice Richmond M. Person was known to secure the release of virtually any conscript, deserter, or person accused of disloyalty who applied to him. Since desertion was not a crime in the state, citizens who shielded deserters felt safe from arrest for hiding them. Added to the problem, war-weary soldiers received volumes of letters from wives and family members urging them to come home--arguing that they "could desert with impunity." It was even said that they could "band together and defy the officers of the law" who came after them. As a result, large numbers were concealed from the army in many parts of the state.

So you point to New York, and if you bothered reading anything you would have found out that New York wasn't the only draft riot, and crow about how there was nothing like it in the south. Why should there be? The southern man didn't have to riot to get out of being drafted. He had his state courts and government actively working against the confederate government and they would make sure he didn't have to serve.

[Non-Sequitur]

BTW: I check my local used-book stores for many titles - a great source of low-priced reads for your library.

Amazon.com has a service now where they act as a broker for people selling used copies of books. If you pull up the page for a book you are interested in there is usually a link to people who have the same book for sale used. It's saved me a lot of money in the past and it's easier than scouring used book stores.

[Colt .45]

NO SIR! And if you knew anything about the framing of the United States Constitution, you would know that the Federalists didn't win that argument. The 10th Amendment specifically limited the powers of the Federal government. You know ... enumerated powers? Limited Central Government? The States were independent entities and by concensus and ratification joined the Union of States forming the United States. The right of seccession was considered an inherent God - given right. Look at the constitution of the State of Virginia.

[WhiskeyPapa]

3-400 Union soldiers were murdered in cold blood at Fort Pillow.

You forget that soldiers die in battle -- Fort Pillow was a battle that the Federals lost big time.

You and I had a refreshingly civil exchange on this Fort Pillow thing on another thread. The reason I cite "3-400" is because of the evidence you introduced. The one website that I found cited contemporary sources as saying 400 Union men were murdered after they had surrendered.

If it were 200, 300 or 400, there is no parallel to that sort of treatment of CSA POW's by the Union.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

You are obviously learned, but also obviously totally ignorant of Southern culture.

Well, I don't have a commie flag tacked up on the wall of my garage, as the song has it.

I've been getting southern culture through my skin for about 46 years now. I thought Nashville was too far north.

Walt

[Non-Sequitur]

First of all I have to correct you on one thing. When you refer to the southern population as 9 milion you overlook the fact that 3.5 million of those were slaves who had zero say in what the south did and when they did it.

Regardless, what does it say for the 5.6 million that they let themselves be led into war by a hack politician? A man who, once appointed into power, spent the next four years trampling all over everything that the southerners said that they were fighting for. Except, of course, for the institution of slavery. Everyting else - states rights, limited central government, low taxes, constitutional protection - Davis dumped all over. What does that say about them?

[WhiskeyPapa]

Forty loyal Texans were hanged in Gainesville, Texas during October 1862, simply for being loyal to the U.S. With the exception of some who were hanged by a lynch mob, they were tried by a civilian court (an impromptu civilian court on the frontier) organized by Confederate army officers. The Confederate Articles of War includes the following:

”Art. 57. Whosoever shall be convicted of holding correspondence with, or giving intelligence to the enemy, either directly or indirectly, shall suffer death or such other punishment as shall be ordered by the sentence of a court-martial.”

Yeah, fourteen were lynched.

As I recall from our exchange on an earlier thread, the first seven condemned were all non-slave holders. That seems how it broke down. The victims were non-slave holders and the executioners were slave holders.

The book I have on this was written by one of the descendants of one of the murdered men. So that probably colors his take on it some. But he said there was nothing more than some general talk of aiding US forces if they approached the area.

I'd be a little leery of citing CSA "law" if I were you. Everything the Germans did to the Jews was strictly legal under German law.

I'd also point out that there were a number of arrests of secessionists in Maryland. Telegragh lines were cut, bridges burned, and U.S. troops fired on. In one instance four U.S. soldiers were killed.

And yet every single person arrested by the federal government for these actions was released unharmed.

So please don't try and suggest that the traitors out in Texas were justified in hanging these men, whose only crime was loyalty to Old Glory.

One thing about this whole ACW rant on FR and elsewhere is this tit for tat thing.

"Yes, CSA troops rampaged and murdered, but they were provoked by Union actions", we hear.

The only problem with this, even if it were true, which it's not, is that no one is putting forth a cult for the Union men of the day. We are told that the secessionists were honorable, christian men and all that, worthy of our respect and veneration.

You'd think that would give them less excuse for bloody murder-- seems like they should be held to a more strict standard, them being the basis of a cult and all, but their murderous actions, to say nothing of the theft of federal property, the legislation passed directing that lawful debts owed to northern PRIVATE creditors be paid to the treasury of the so-called CSA and all that doesn't faze some of their defenders.

In fact, these dishonorable actions don't seem to faze ANY of their defenders.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

Miller was under arms, a legitimate POW.

...but innocent of any wrongdoing. Sherman had him executed in cold blood.

Before these executions, Sherman's men were subjected to bushwhacking and ambush by non-combatants. It was made very plain to authorities of the so-called CSA that if these actions outside the laws of war were not stopped, that reprisal executions would take place. More ambushes and bushwahcking followed. A few CSA POW's chosen by lot (or maybe just this one) were executed.

The bushwhacking stopped.

This was something done throughout the war.

There was a thread a few weeks ago venerating some CSA captain executed by federal forces.

Well, turns out he was executed for the cold blooded murder of 53 Union POW's at Saltville, VA. That puts a slightly different tinge on it, don't you think?

Many of those Union POW's were black.

Threatening, or executing, CSA prisoners in order to extort better treatment of US prisoners was a constant in 1863-65.

That is something the CSA cult mongers gloss over.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

If it was so widely held that the CSA would prevail Walt, why did none of the European powers formally recognize them?

I think you answer your own question, and don't even realize it.

You would set up the republic of Wardaddy. I don't think the consular services of the various foreign nations would be sending you ambassadors. You could add an extra cup of water in the soup, if they all wanted to come for dinner.

I guess if you pinned some of the fire eaters down, they would have said something like, "oh yes, the yankees have the potential to produce 5,000 rifles a DAY (which they did) and we only have the capability to produce 100 a day (which also happened), but the yankees won't fight."

Well, that's just what the Japs thought -- the Yankees won't fight.

Of course even under the worst of Sherman's depredations, few were more than dispossessed of their homes, belongings or food.

In the one Tokyo firebombing in March, 1945, masses of Japanese civilians rushed to and fro trying to escape the raging firestorms created by U.S. bombers. Over 70,000 were incinerated or suffocated in just that one night.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

That demand for "one civilian name" is getting old. It seems you cannot come up with anything new, why is that?

I'll keep running this up the flag pole, so to speak, as long as it keeps being said that Sherman's men raped and pillaged their way across the south. That didn't happen. So far as I know, not a single civilian was executed by Sherman's men or on his orders.

But "one civilian name" you say. Here are the names of the forty loyal Texans hanged by CSA authorities (or lynched while CSA authorities looked on):

Nathaniel Clark, Wernell, Richard Martin, Grandpaw Burch, H.J. Esmond, Ward, Evans, Clem Woods, Wolsey, Manon, Leffel, A. B. McNeice, Wash Moirris, Wesley Morris, Thomas Floyd (shot), John Crisp, James Powers, Rama Dye, J. Dawson, Wiley, K. Morris, Barnes, Milburn, W. Anderson, Gross, Ward,, Dr. Johnson, Childs, Senir, Childs, Junior, Hampton, Locke, Foster, Fields, D. Anderson, D. Taylor, R. Manton, Jones, carmichael, Henry Cochran.

--from "The Civil War Recolections of Lemuel Clark"

It sure is funny that a bunch of cold blooded murderers could be the subject of a cult of veneration.

Walt

[Non-Sequitur]

When are you going to get it through your head, Walt, that when the Yankees did it then it was an atrocity. When the confederates did it then it was all part of the noble struggle for sothron independence and states rights.

[WhiskeyPapa]

When are you going to get it through your head, Walt, that when the Yankees did it then it was an atrocity. When the confederates did it then it was all part of the noble struggle for sothron independence and states rights.

When I get the common sense part of my brain lobotomized.

Walt

[muleboy]

What does that say about them?

I believe it says that Southerners were far less astute in choosing a CIC for an unexpectedly long and costly war. Southerners were far more resistant to the concept of "the ends justify the means" than their Northern counterparts.

As flawed as Davis was, however, his vision of a post-war governing system was far superior to Lincoln's.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I believe it says that Southerners were far less astute in choosing a CIC for an unexpectedly long and costly war.

Ever see those resume writing services?

Anyone who considers the resumes of Davis and Lincoln sure would look askance at resumes generally.

Davis was a graduate of West Point, serving officer in the Mexican War, secretary of war, and senator.

Lincoln ran a two person law firm and served one term in the Congress.

Lincoln, I believe once said he picked Herndon as law partner because he was better organized! And Herndon was a heavy drinker. That was bound to help his organization skills.

But who did the masterful job as CIC and who was bitterly criticized when a war that was completely winnable was lost?

Walt