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U.S. Won't Allow Guns in Cockpits
AP ^ | 2-21-2002 | JONATHAN D. SALANT

Posted on 05/21/2002 7:34:17 AM PDT by Cagey

WASHINGTON (AP) - The federal government said Tuesday that pilots will not be allowed to have guns in the cockpits of commercial airplanes.

The announcement was made at a Senate Commerce Committee hearing by John Magaw, undersecretary for transportation security. It followed months of debate over whether arming pilots would be a deterrent to hijackers.

Both Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta and Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge previously indicated their opposition to arming pilots.

Magaw gave no reason for his decision, which was announced in response to a question from Arizona Sen. John McCain, the top Republican on the committee.

Magaw said a formal announcement will be made later in the week.

Airline pilots have been pushing for guns, saying it would allow them to confront a hijacker who breaks into the cockpit. Hijackers took over four commercial airlines on Sept. 11, crashing two of them into the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon. The fourth crashed in a field in Pennsylvania.

Flight attendants, meanwhile, have advocated nonlethal weapons, such as stun guns, that they could use in emergencies.

Sen. Ernest Hollings, D-S.C., who chairs the Commerce Committee, said guns would not be needed as long as pilots kept cockpit doors locked while in flight.

"You can put the rule in right now and cut out all the argument about pistols and stun guns," Hollings said.

Opponents of arming pilots have said reinforced cockpit doors now required on all planes mean that pistols are unnecessary. They have also expressed concern that an errant shot might hit a passenger or damage a key electrical system on the plane.

Two House Republicans have introduced legislation to arm pilots and the House Transportation Committee is scheduled to take up the bill this week.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government
KEYWORDS: aircraft; banglist; guns; pilots
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To: Your Nightmare
As usual with you, the "armed marshall" waiting in the plane is 90% imagination -- number one, first answer this: how many different flights are there in, into and out of the US each day? Number two, just how long can armed air marshalls, each working many years to be a federal pensionaire, maintain ANY useful reaction ability -- sitting on long flights day after day gets very dull after a few months, except perhaps in fertile fantasy-loving minds such as yours? Number three, just why oh why, did the sky marshall program we did have in the seventies get abandoned -- and what the heck keeps that dangerous flaw from happening again?
181 posted on 05/21/2002 11:05:18 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Surfin
I'm telling you, and everyone else, this has nothing to do with protecting citizens. This has everything to do with the liberal media saying that guns are bad. If pilots started to carry guns and it worked out to less terrorist, that would destroy the liberal media's bias against guns.

Yes, but as I said above, that's for a reason. It's not to please the media - it's because the larger agenda demands that the people be disarmed. Otherwise, Americans will not settle for global rule. Nor will they be pleased when Social Security collapses and all that money people think is in their "account" somewhere simply vanishes (because it was never really there).

182 posted on 05/21/2002 11:05:59 AM PDT by Jefferson Adams
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To: dixierat22
This thread is funny. Mainly b/c a thought out decision is made, and people on here are already calling for the head of our President. I am more concerned with keeping the pilots secured in the cockpit rather than them coming out of the cockpit, making the entire plane vulnerable, and giving a well trained terrorist who has probably taken a lot of time to practice shooting or cutting the chance of getting in that cockpit.
An armed pilot is not going to safeproof that cockpit. Mike Spann was armed and he got his ass shot off. Why? Because he was outnumbered. If one of the pilots on 9-11 had a gun, he would had to have been one excellent shot to shoot every single terrorist that was on that plane. Keep the cockpit closed and barred, and land the plane if there is a problem behind them.
183 posted on 05/21/2002 11:06:18 AM PDT by GOPyouth
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To: Cagey
And if that doesn't work, a passenger strike.

That's already in effect. Just the thought of sitting next to some guy that smells like a campfire and looks like Yasser Arafat kinda has a tendency to change a lot of folks travel plans.

184 posted on 05/21/2002 11:06:56 AM PDT by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Cagey
From Gun Owners of America last year:

www.gunowners.org
Dec 2001
Nominee Could Sink Armed Pilots Law
-- Ask your Senator to closely scrutinize the Magaw
nomination
Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102
Springfield, VA 22151
(703)321-8585

(Wednesday, December 12, 2001) -- Because of your tremendous help, Gun Owners of America was able to overcome enormous hurdles while pushing a provision arming pilots through the Congress and onto the President's desk earlier this Fall. Now the next phase in this battle begins.

The Senate Commerce-Science-Transportation Committee will hold confirmation hearings beginning this Thursday or Friday. The nominee is John Magaw who has been selected to fill the new Transportation Security Chief position.

Should he be confirmed, Magaw would have the job of enforcing the new law allowing pilots to carry arms onto planes. As the new security chief, Magaw would have the power to "make or break" it for the pilots, since he would be entrusted with the power to authorize (or deny) any specific program facilitating the arming of pilots.

Unfortunately, John Magaw does not come highly recommended by the firearms community. As the former Director of the BATF, Magaw oversaw the cover-up of the Waco debacle, and as chief Gun Czar, he was certainly no friend of gun owners.

ACTION: By receiving this alert, your Senator is one of the key members of the Commerce-Science-Transportation Committee. Please ask your Senator to get nominee John Magaw on record in support of enforcing the armed pilots provision in Section 128 of the new aviation act. Moreover, ask your Senator to OPPOSE Magaw if he will not commit to letting pilots defend their crews and passengers.

KEY MEMBERS OF THE COMMERCE-SCIENCE-TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE:
AK Ted Stevens (R)
AZ John McCain (R)
CA Barbara Boxer (D)
GA Max Cleland (D)
IL Peter Fitzgerald (R)
KS Sam Brownback (R)
LA John Breaux (D)
ME Olympia Snowe (R)
MO Jean Carnahan (D)
MS Trent Lott (R)
MT Conrad Burns (R)
NC John Edwards (D)
ND Byron Dorgan (D)
NV John Ensign (R)
OR Gordon Smith (R)
SC Fritz Hollings (D)
TX Kay B. Hutchison (R)
VA George Allen (R)
WV Rockefeller (D)
Hollings and McCain are the majority and minority chairmen of the committee, respectively. Both oppose arming pilots.

You can call your Senators at 202-224-3121. To send a message via e-mail, plug in your zipcode under Elected Officials at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm in the GOA Legislative Action Center. p ----- Pre-written message -----
Dear Senator:
On November 19, President Bush signed the Aviation and Transportation Security Act into law. This bill creates a new under secretary of transportation security who will be in charge of administering the armed pilots provision which was included in Section 128 of the law.

I have strong reservations, however, regarding the nomination of John Magaw as the new security chief. As the former head of the BATF, he hardly demonstrated any support for the Bill of Rights. Thus, as the Commerce-Science-Transportation Committee begins hearings on Mr. Magaw, I hope you will make sure that he commits to enforce the law arming commercial pilots.

The "armed pilots" language will do more to secure the safety of passengers from the threat of terrorism than any of the other provisions in the act. It's no wonder, then, that pilots themselves want to defend themselves with guns. At least four local pilot unions have passed resolutions around the country stating they will strike if they are not allowed to defend their planes and passengers with firearms. You can read about this for yourself at http://www.gunowners.org/op0142.htm on the web.

Please do not support the confirmation of John Magaw unless he is 100 percent committed to approving a program that will facilitate the arming of pilots. Thank you.

Sincerely,

185 posted on 05/21/2002 11:07:05 AM PDT by A. Patriot
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To: Your Nightmare
"Give the pilots guns" is a simplistic solution to a complex problem.

It is a simple solution, and because of that effective. The problem is complex? Why? What exactly -- besides imaginary leaps of fantasic possiblies -- is complex about it?

186 posted on 05/21/2002 11:07:49 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Your Nightmare
I agree. That is why I am advocating that the pilots do everything possible (reinforced doors, guns, snap rolls...the whole bit) to make sure that aircraft is not used to bring down 2 buildings.

There is also another element to this: the passengers. I don't want to sound crasse, but the people on Flight 93 are TRUE American heros precisely because they stood up to their hijackers. I get misty just thinking of the b*lls that a regular guy like Todd Beamer had. His "Let's Roll" comment is really the battle cry of every passenger that travels on the airlines.

Fact: The passengers will no longer be passive. Now that they understand that they are dead no matter. They now realize that these Muslim fanatics will kill them, their children, whoever --that is what Muslim fanatics do (they are cowards).

There was a story where a pilot (airline?) instructed the passengers on PRECISELY what to do if a hijacker were to attempt a takeover...I can't find the link. Basically, it was bum rush him and beat the crap of him. Every pilot should be required to read that, instead of the stupid "Here's the exit" speech.

187 posted on 05/21/2002 11:10:03 AM PDT by mattdono
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To: Surfin
I don't think I would really want to live in Israel. They can arm all they want, but they are under constant fear of bombs going off.
188 posted on 05/21/2002 11:10:32 AM PDT by GOPyouth
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Comment #189 Removed by Moderator

To: bvw
It is a simple solution, and because of that effective. The problem is complex? Why? What exactly -- besides imaginary leaps of fantasic possiblies -- is complex about it?

Theres a big difference between "simple" (your word) and "simplistic" (my word).

190 posted on 05/21/2002 11:12:09 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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To: Your Nightmare
Give the pilots guns" is a simplistic solution to a complex problem.

Exactly!

191 posted on 05/21/2002 11:13:26 AM PDT by GOPyouth
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To: Your Nightmare
Okay, what is the big difference between "simple" and "simplistic"?
192 posted on 05/21/2002 11:15:39 AM PDT by bvw
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To: GOPyouth
Because he was outnumbered. If one of the pilots on 9-11 had a gun, he would had to have been one excellent shot to shoot every single terrorist that was on that plane.

It gets considerably easier to shoot terrorists when they all have to come through the same small door to enter the cockpit.

193 posted on 05/21/2002 11:15:56 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: mattdono
The vast majority of airline pilots came from the military.........where they were allowed to carry a gun in the cockpit. We can trust pilots to fly a 767 aircraft, but we don't trust them to handle a hand pistol correctly.

Sheesh......even dull-normal Wal Mart security guards are trusted to handle a gun properly.......

What did McWhiney have to say about all this?

194 posted on 05/21/2002 11:16:28 AM PDT by RooRoobird14
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To: Your Nightmare
Name a bad scenario - if the pilot were armed.

Come on. NAME ONE.

Your liberal, anti-freedom buddies WANT THE PLANE SHOT DOWN if it is hijacked ......

Come on, name ONE "bad scenario" that happens if the pilot were armed - that would make the situaion worse.

195 posted on 05/21/2002 11:16:32 AM PDT by Robert A Cook PE
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To: Surfin
That's like saying you want armed police to watch over hapless unarmed fools who don't know how to defend themselves. If you are afraid of guns, don't have any, let the rest of us responsible citizens, many ex military, exercise our rights without entertaining your scared scenerios.


No, it's like saying that there is a better chance to twart terrorists if the pilot can concentrate on piloting, not trying to be Arnold Schwarzenegger blasting terrorist with guns in both hands while he lands the plane with his pinky toe.

Your not really making much of a point here

196 posted on 05/21/2002 11:17:56 AM PDT by Your Nightmare
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Comment #197 Removed by Moderator

To: all
You know, I am not really sure why we are even debating this.

The next attack will not be with a commercial airplane. The next attack will be devastating, there will be lots of people dead (primarily because of the demoNUGGETs emasculation of the intelligence services), but it won't be done with a commercial airliner.

I hope there isn't another attack, but with a$$holes like Osama, Yasser, and SoDamn Insane running around the world, we are looking at that proposition.

Sounds like some good, old-fashioned "wet ops" are in order!

198 posted on 05/21/2002 11:18:59 AM PDT by mattdono
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To: Your Nightmare
Too many bad scenarios arise with a pilot trying to defend the cockpit with a gun. Let the pilot fly the plane and let an air marshall protect it.

Logical fallacy called false choice

THe answer is (secured doors + marhsall + armed pilots). Assuming the first two fail then you would be praying that the pilot was armed.

199 posted on 05/21/2002 11:19:29 AM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: Cagey
So what happens in this scenario - Terrorists take flight attendants hostage and hold gun to their head and threaten to kill them unless the cockpit door is unlocked. 2 options as I see it - (1) unlock the door and we are back to square 1. (2) Open cockpit door and fire shots to the heads of the terrorists - case closed.
200 posted on 05/21/2002 11:20:08 AM PDT by Mr. Wright
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