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Denver Judge Axes the Constitution - Update of Rick Stanley's 2A/Civil Disobedience Trial
The Stanley for U.S. Senate 2002 Colorado Campaign - News Release ^ | May 15, 2002 | Stanley for U.S. Senate 2002 - Colorado

Posted on 05/16/2002 3:05:12 AM PDT by LibertyRocks

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To: ctdonath2
John Adams never advocated that citizens be disarmed; in your quote he simply advocated that citizens obey the law while they possess arms.

Correction: when they use arms.

Essentially what Adams is saying is that citizens should only use arms [against other people] for self-defense, or as directed by the government; they are not to act as non-governmental vigilantes. For citizens to use their arms in vigilante actions would be to undermine even a fully-legitimate government.

To be sure, John Adams fails to recognize what should have been additional non-governmental uses for weapons (e.g. hunting, practice). He also fails to recognize that use of arms against lawless government personnel may need to extend beyond individual self-defense (e.g. Battle of Athens, ca 1946 or so). Even he, however, did not come anywhere near implying that citizens shouldn't possess arms or be able to use them in their own defense.

601 posted on 05/17/2002 4:24:04 PM PDT by supercat
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To: sinkspur
With the same broad brush, I could say that, because the libertarians want to see the death of the system, libertarians should be culled from the jury pool.

I wouldn't want a libertarian on a jury to decide a traffic ticket. Fortunately they are statistically insignificant, based on election returns. But they're as much an enemy of the state and our country as any ACLU type.

602 posted on 05/17/2002 4:25:34 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: Roscoe
See #501
603 posted on 05/17/2002 4:27:01 PM PDT by supercat
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To: VA Advogado
Your demented ravings on libertarians remind me of another Virginia lawyer, 'Eschoir'. -- Could it be?
604 posted on 05/17/2002 4:39:26 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Demented implies not well deserved. In your case, and most of your libertarian cabal, they are.
605 posted on 05/17/2002 4:52:46 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: tpaine
You been to Cairo lately?
606 posted on 05/17/2002 4:59:46 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: Roscoe
And the Second Amendment is a restraint on the federal government.

"The Second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." -- US Supreme Court, U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875), Presser v. State of Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886)

After the undeserved bashing you gave me over the whole Christine thing, I never thought we would be in agreement on anything. I'm with you on this one. The Constitution is clearly a limitation upon Federal activities except where it explicitly mentions the states. The unfortunate and incongruous 14th Amendment and its continuing misapplication has changed that though.

Even so, the Colorado Constitution recognizes and guarantees the right to keep and bear arms - the Denver ordinance can't supersede that.

Stanley had the right, both before and after the U.S. Constitution and the Colorado Constitution, to carry his weapon anywhere he damn well pleased too. Inalienable is inalienable - the City of Denver be damned.

607 posted on 05/17/2002 5:03:35 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: VA Advogado
My cabal? -- How weird.

Eschoir was more than a bit paranoid also. -- Hard to hide basic disorders, isn't it?

608 posted on 05/17/2002 5:21:57 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: supercat
Correction: when they use arms.

Correction accepted.

609 posted on 05/17/2002 5:51:15 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: supercat
Did Stanley's lawyer make any effort to establish either of the following two matters of fact

The judge ordered him not to. The whole point of asking a prospective juror a hypothetical question about the state & federal constitutions was to get that prohibition repeatedly documented. He may not have literally established those two facts, but he did make it clear that he was absolutely forbidden to do so, a point which an appellate judge should shred this judge on.

610 posted on 05/17/2002 5:55:49 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: Zon
do you have link to

Not off hand. Just got back from a paintball session and I can hardly type straight, much less find obscure legal references. I'm sure someone else has it handy; Roscoe probably knows, even if he can't comprehend it.

611 posted on 05/17/2002 6:17:08 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: tpaine
Hard to hide basic disorders, isn't it?

Who am I to argue with your experience? :)

612 posted on 05/17/2002 7:00:48 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: VA Advogado
Wit was never a strong point with 'Eschoir', either. -- Try harder, you're blowing your cover with stupidity.
613 posted on 05/17/2002 7:25:05 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Spiff
Even so, the Colorado Constitution recognizes and guarantees the right to keep and bear arms - the Denver ordinance can't supersede that.

Maybe. I've heard it argued that Denver has greater latitude to pass restrictions as a "home rule city", but I don't have enough information to make a decision on that point.

Rick deliberately chose to wrap himself in the mantle of the Second Amendment when he went down to defeat. I believe he knew he was chalking up another court loss for us when he went in, but that he really didn't care.

Shame on him, shame on his "lawyer."

614 posted on 05/17/2002 8:08:12 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: VA Advogado
But they're as much an enemy of the state and our country as any ACLU type.

More so.

615 posted on 05/17/2002 8:11:06 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: tpaine
He was defying an unconstitutional law

No, he was just looking for a little cheap publicity.

Guilty as charged.

616 posted on 05/17/2002 8:18:15 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: supercat
"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws." -- John Adams

Basic federalism.

617 posted on 05/17/2002 8:24:04 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
He was defying an unconstitutional law, - unconstitutional on both state & federal grounds. His defense was to be based on that fact. - 596

No, he was just looking for a little cheap publicity.
Guilty as charged.

Your opinion here is worthless, roscoe, as you are an avowed foe of the 2nd amendment RKBA. -- In your demented eyes, he is guilty of defying your beloved all powerful state. - Bizarro.

618 posted on 05/17/2002 9:09:44 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: Roscoe
More so.

In theory. But the reality is they're so stoned or medicated, they would never be trusted in any position of power.

619 posted on 05/17/2002 9:34:23 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: wacko
Jack Booted Thug
620 posted on 05/17/2002 10:10:03 PM PDT by Zon
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