U.S. Calls Bomb Blast in Russia an 'Atrocity' (asks Russia not to seek military solution??)

Reuters via Yahoo! ^ | Thu May 9, 5:10 PM ET | Elaine Monaghan

[David Hunter]

Please consider the following points regarding firearm use for self defence, posted in a BBC online debate from here.

"So Bruce M. from the US thinks we should be allowed to carry guns. Great idea, the mugging statistics would be reduced, but the murder rate would rocket. The States have had more incidents of someone going crazy with a gun in the first 16 days of this year than the UK has had in 20 years. I think I'll take my chances being mugged thank you." Paul Snook, UK

"I'm mystified by the comment made by Bruce M from the US. Does he really think that allowing citizens to own firearms reduces violent crime? He should look at the US murder statistics." Chris Booth, UK

"Why yes Bruce M, I do note violent crime in the areas of the world that allow citizens to own firearms, namely the king of them all, the USA. It is a pretty violent country isn't it?" Chris Cormier, Canada

"Allowing citizens to be armed is not a solution. Ask any Johannesburg resident about the consequences of this and they will tell you that more than 60% of those firearms were stolen from them and used to commit gruesome crimes. You never know with whom those guns will end up." Vuyani, Soweto, Johannesburg, South Africa

However, I totally agree with the point below.

"The law on self-defence needs changing. If I saw someone being mugged I'd be reluctant to help in case I was convicted for assault and the criminal sued me for damages!" Alan Y, UK

[MarMema]

the facts show that the Russians have exploited terrorist incidents, without any evidence about who caused them, in order to gain popular Russian support for the war in Chechnya.

That's a bunch of liberal crapola if I ever heard it. You haven't been there, Mr. I have.

You think because you have a friend in Britain who is Russian you know it all now, at what was it? Age 21?

You need to go get an education and I suggest you start by visiting the poor exploited chechen bandits and their compatriots. Take them some aid and see how long your head stays attached to the rest of your body. You're a long way from getting it and I hope you grow up soon.

[MarMema]

Chechen bandits may well have been reponsible for the kidnappings and torture of Russian citizens post 1996,

Gee, YA THINK SO???

I wonder if maybe you allowed that conclusion because of the way they love to videotape themselves torturing and murdering people, and young children and then send the videos to the families and government in Russia. What the heck more proof would you need, since they show a lot of those videos on TV in Russia.

And with this kind of proof, you have the guts to say something like "may well have been responsible"???

You need a brain transplant.

And, by the way, brainless one, Not just Russians, but Americans too! There's a video of Herbert Gregg, a Baptist missionary, who was kidnapped by the chechens, on the net. (Is that enough proof for you to not blame the FSB for this one?) They cut off his fingers one at a time and in the video he passes out as they do it. Each time, each finger that is, they made a video and sent it to his family requesting money.

He wasn't even in chechnya by the way, he was in Dagestan with a Baptist mission. They kidnapped him from another country and brought him to chechnya.
Dagestan. Not too far from where the last bomb went off, in case you're interested.

[MarMema]

Human Rights Watch...yes the Liberal's favorite tool...

Kumbaya warning.

[MarMema]

Pastor Alexei Sitnikov's Death Also Confirmed

THE BRUTAL "EVANGELICAL CLEANSING" IN CHECHNYA CONTINUES AS TWO MORE CHRISTIANS ARE MURDERED AND ANOTHER TWO KIDNAPPED

Assist Communications --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24 August 1999

Istanbul, Turkey - Open Doors has confirmed that the brutal wave of "Evangelical Cleansing" is continuing in the troubled region of Chechnya, as two members of the Grozny Baptist Church have been murdered and another two kidnapped during the past two weeks in the chaotic Chechen capital, according to a trusted source in southern Russia.

"This brutal policy of 'Evangelical Cleansing' in Chechnya by radical Islamic gangs is something that we should all be aware of," said Terry Madison, US President and CEO of Open Doors, the ministry begun more than four decades ago by Brother Andrew, the Dutch-born author of the best-selling book, "God's Smuggler." Madison added, "I am calling on all concerned Christians in the West to take part in an urgent prayer campaign for those few believers that are left in Chechnya. This is a life and death situation and they need our help at this terrible time of danger for them."

Barbara G. Baker, the Middle East correspondent for Compass Direct news service, has revealed that one of the murder victims, an 82-year-old widow identified only as Zhenya, was abducted from her apartment during the first week of August, according to a telephoned report.

"The elderly church member, who was reportedly tortured and raped before being strangled to death, had been the only eyewitness of the abduction on March 12 of Grozny church leader Alexandr Kulakov, whose severed head was found several weeks later at a local marketplace," said Baker.

"In a separate incident, an unnamed woman in her 70s was killed in her home the same week, apparently beaten to death. There was no known motive for the murder, although church members assumed that the serious housing shortage since the devastating civil war concluded in 1996 may have driven someone in the neighborhood to eliminate her and take over her apartment."

Madison added, "Still another church member, Alexandra Zaradniskaya, was kidnapped sometime earlier this month. The abductors have already demanded a ransom of $4,000 for her release."

A source has told Compass Direct, "This lady's daughter was kidnapped and released some time ago. So since the daughter is now living somewhere in Russia, the kidnappers probably think she would be able to pay a sizeable ransom for her mother's release."

"Most recently, a young deacon in the church was reported kidnapped on August 14. With only two men remaining in the church, Vitaly Korotun, 23, had succeeded the murdered Kulakov as pastor," stated Madison. "He had become a Christian and started attending the church only a year ago. The worst is feared because no ransom was requested.

"Since early June, twenty-three members of the Grozny Baptist Church have managed to escape the country to resettle in southern Russia. Only elderly women, a few orphans remaining from the war and an 82-year-old man constitute the last 40 members of the congregation. All are virtually trapped inside the country."

"The death of pastor Alexei Sitnikov, kidnapped in November 1998 and long presumed killed, has been confirmed to a Russian Christian by a Chechen police officer. According to the official, Sitnikov's severed head was displayed on national television quite some time ago, in an effort to have someone identify him."

A source explained, "This was not an attempt by the authorities to intimidate Christians. It's a regular practice of the police, because the gangs of kidnappers behead so many people who can't pay them ransoms, and no one knows who they are." However, since only a few church members have TV sets and Grozny's electricity remains sporadic, no one in the church had seen the footage of the pastor's head.

Sitnikov's elderly invalid mother was one of the first church members evacuated out of Grozny in early June to Krasnodar, a region of the Russian Federation along the Black Sea coast. Although she had been bedfast and unable to communicate for many months, she is now able to get out of bed, and is talking and even laughing again.

"She knows now that her son is missing," a source said, "but she has not yet learned that his death has been confirmed."

On Sunday, August 15, Chechnya declared a state of emergency in response to armed clashes mounting between Russian forces and Islamic militants in neighboring Dagestan, imposing a partial curfew and closure of all border exits out of Chechnya.

"Chechnya is home to the Chechens, a predominantly Sunni Muslim group. In late 1994, the Chechens announced their secession from Russia," stated Madison. "Since then, at least 30,000 people have been killed in the ensuing war. The Russians quickly dominated Chechnya militarily, including the capital city of Grozny, sending in tens of thousands of occupying troops and patrolling with tanks and helicopters. But Russian troop morale and domestic support for the war quickly faltered, while the Chechen troops remained fiercely determined to regain their homeland.

"From 1995 to early 1996, the Chechens waged a guerilla war against the Russians, attacking occupying soldiers at night, and committing bloody raids against Russian towns.

"By February 1996, Chechen rebel leaders walked freely among the streets of the occupied Chechen farming town of Novogroznensky. Russian soldiers patrolled the area but avoided direct confrontation. In March, rebels launched a major assault on Russian troops occupying Grozny on the day before Russian military and political leaders met to discuss how to end the war.

"In late March 1996, Russian President Boris Yeltsin announced his peace plan for Chechnya, which boiled down to getting out of the region. Since then, all Russian military have left the area."

For more information on the ministry of Open Doors, write: Open Doors with Brother Andrew, PO Box 27001, Santa Ana, CA 92799 or call: (949) 752-6600

[MarMema]

Joining Herbert Gregg, third from left, following his release are, from left, Kelly Adams-Smith, Jim Murphy, Laura Clerici, Phil Cantrell and Jim Treacy. Photo by Laura Clerici

You hear about kidnappings and all the ordeals associated with them--from the demands for ransom to the threats of violence against the victims and their families. In a recent kidnapping case, the U.S. Embassy in Moscow was fortunate to have escaped the worst of these trials and to see the victim and family happily reunited.

Last June 29, U.S. citizen Herbert Gregg was released from a nearly eight-month captivity, thanks to a complicated operation headed by the Russian Ministry of Interior. Mr. Gregg, a missionary who had been teaching in Dagestan before his abduction, had been held there and in Chechnya by a group of Chechen kidnappers.

While the Russian police were ultimately responsible for Mr. Gregg's release, the U.S. Mission in Russia also played a crucial role by keeping the kidnapping alive in the minds of its government counterparts. Ambassador James Collins had directed the mission to work together as a team under a single coordinator, Consul General Laura Clerici. The staff kept the ambassador briefed so he was able to use every opportunity to keep the issue on the list of priority bilateral issues with the Russian government. The regional security officer, Jim Murphy; the assistant legal attaché, Jim Treacy; and the American citizen services chief, Kelly Adams-Smith, coordinated contact with the police and with Mr. Gregg's colleagues at the Evangelical Alliance Mission.

Back in Washington, D.C., Bill Daniels and his colleagues in the Bureau of Consular Affairs' Office of Overseas Citizen Services maintained close contact with the mission and with Linda Gregg, the victim's wife. The FBI's Critical Incident Response Group combined its efforts with those of police from the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs' Organized Crime Unit in investigating the kidnapping.

But the embassy's role in the case did not end upon Mr. Gregg's longanticipated release. Instead, the embassy community similarly pulled together to make his transition to freedom as smooth as possible.

Embassy medical personnel examined his hand because a video on the evening news had shown the kidnappers cutting off Mr. Gregg's right index finger in a $3 million ransom demand. No ransom was ever paid, and following his release, Mr. Gregg underwent major reconstructive surgery on his hand in the United States.

On the embassy compound, the wife of the assistant legal attaché gave Mr. Gregg a haircut and shave, and the embassy's Marine detachment donated clothing and shoes to Mr. Gregg, a former Marine. Meanwhile, U.S. Information Service representatives fielded media inquiries about the case.

After a press conference with Ambassador Collins and Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Vladimir Rushailo at the airport in Moscow, Mr. Gregg spent a peaceful night in the consul general's home on the embassy compound.

Early the next day, Russian police and representatives of the legal attaché and regional security offices debriefed Mr. Gregg on his ordeal before his flight to London. There, the consular section staff met him at Heathrow International Airport, where he was reunited with his family and escorted to a hotel.

Before returning home to Arizona a few weeks later, the Greggs attended the embassy's 4th of July party, during which Mr. Gregg was reported to have feasted on five hamburgers and "tons" of other food.
source

[David Hunter]

I wonder if maybe you allowed that conclusion because of the way they love to videotape themselves torturing and murdering people, and young children and then send the videos to the families and government in Russia. What the heck more proof would you need, since they show a lot of those videos on TV in Russia.

They are murdering scum. However, since the Russians are so keen to publicise these videos it can only help the government justify its punitive sweep operations against civilians in Chechnya.

And with this kind of proof, you have the guts to say something like "may well have been responsible"???

I meant that there are many unsolved crimes laid at the door of Chechens, such as the Moscow bombings, which led to the popular Russian support for the second Chechen war.

They cut off his fingers one at a time and in the video he passes out as they do it. Each time, each finger that is, they made a video and sent it to his family requesting money.

They are sadistic bandit scum. But let us not allow their despicable behaviour to make us condone the Russian mass torture, rape and murder against innocent Chechen civilians.

He wasn't even in chechnya by the way, he was in Dagestan with a Baptist mission. They kidnapped him from another country and brought him to chechnya. Dagestan. Not too far from where the last bomb went off, in case you're interested

I hope that the men who were detained were responsible for the Dagestan bombing, if they weren't, they've had it, since the FSB are experts at making people confess under torture. As I said to Stavka2 the Russian Police also torture a large proportion of the people they arrest, including people arrested for petty offences - like not having their internal passport with them. I notice he didn't argue against that fact.

The problem I have with the terrorism in Russia, is that when any kind of terrorist incident happens anywhere in Russia, Putin automatically blames it on 'Chechen scum' without any evidence. If an incident was proved to have been done by Chechens then fair enough. But please remember that they are investigated by the FSB who aren't averse to ignoring due process, human rights, innocence etc. Would you like to be arrested as a suspected terrorist by the FSB?

Why were the FSB planting a bomb in an apartment building in Ryazan in 1999 during the Moscow bombings?

Wouldn't such a thing only serve to cause widespread panic and hysteria?

Why did they initially blame it on terrorists and then explain it away as an exercise, after the Police said they were getting close to the bombers?

Why does Putin continue to block an investigation into the Moscow bombings, the worst cases of terrorism in Russian history?

These aren't my questions, they are ones the British and Russian media have asked repeatedly, without receiving any coherent answers. If you can give me good answers to these questions, then I will gladly go along with the Russian government's pronouncements about Chechens being responsile for all the terrorism in Russia.

[jpsb]

Here is my solution

USA, Russia and India divid the middle east and Islamic far east into zones of occupation, USA invades from the west, Russia from tne north and India from the east. We take the zones by force of arms and kill anyone that doesn't like it.

The above would be precided by a declaration of war against all nations ruled by Islamic Law.

[MarMema]

I'll second it again!

[jpsb]

The more I listen to what Islam is saying and doing the more I am resigned to the fact that a general war with fundemetal Islamic nations is unavoidable. Just as a general war with the Chicoms over control of the Pacific Rim is unavoidalbe.

[Stavka2]

Hmmm, interesting counter arguements....I give you direct studies and statistics, many by from English think tanks, showing a direct correlation with a rapid increase in the murder rate and the out lawing of self protection to the law abiding citizenry (imagine this, criminals didn't follow the law and turn in their weapons) and you give me opinions in response...sorry doesn't cut any water with me. Try a bit harder. And if you are going to argue against the studies, at least do it with other studies or numbers/facts, not unenlightened public opinion. Oh, and I recently had a great opportunity to speak to a couple of British WW2 Veterns....their view on things British is way off from yours and I'd say they definitly have a firm grasp on what's going on.

[Stavka2]

First of all, most of the Russian media that was asking those "questions" was owned by two particular oligarchs who were up for corruption and racketering charges and who had owned Boris Yeltsin. Berezenski, in particular, has been out to topple the Russian government, since at one point he used to call himself the "king maker". Guess again.

I meant that there are many unsolved crimes laid at the door of Chechens, such as the Moscow bombings, which led to the popular Russian support for the second Chechen war

Guess who runs the prostitution and drug trade in most of England and the rest of the EU? Yup, Chechin gangs. But you'll just cuddle them some more in England and tell them to be proud of their heritage, as their knifing your mum for fish and chips.

[Stavka2]

No I didn't avoid it. I agreed that Russian institutions such as prisons needed to be improved. It switched to discussing England because you constantly brought up England as the prime example of the perfect system and shot those arguements down. As for the State raising kids, now we go into a whole new catogory of marxism. As Stalin once said: "Education is a weapon, it only matters who you aim it against." Think on that.

PS: Napalm is petrol, gas...the american slang. It's benzine with a thickening agent (detergent) that gelitonizes it so that it sticks better.

[David Hunter]

...a rapid increase in the murder rate and the out lawing of self protection to the law abiding citizenry (imagine this, criminals didn't follow the law and turn in their weapons) and you give me opinions in response...

The increase in the murder rate isn't as big as you would like to believe and you still haven't said what the murder rate in the USA is compared to Britain.

As I said before the British government has never liked the idea of British people using firearms for self defence. Also there is not much of a tradition of gun ownership among most British people, that's why when most pistols were prohibited by the Conservative government there was so little public protest.

First of all, most of the Russian media that was asking those "questions" was owned by two particular oligarchs who were up for corruption and racketering charges and who had owned Boris Yeltsin. Berezenski, in particular, has been out to topple the Russian government, since at one point he used to call himself the "king maker".

Gusinsky and Berezovsky were initially political allies of Putin, they helped him get elected. However, he had them brought up on corruption charges when their media outlets began to criticise him. Also what's all this I here about the FSB planning to assassinate Berezovsky:

'It was reported that one of the officers, Lieutenant Colonel Aleksandr Litvinenko, stated that he had been threatened after refusing to carry out an order to murder businessman Boris Berezovsky. He also allegedly stated that certain senior officials had used the FSB for their own private political and material purposes, to settle accounts with undesirable persons, and to carry out private political and criminal orders for a fee.'

Putin also told 'Le Figaro' that he wanted to hit Berezovsky's head with a club. Given his obviously unscrupulous nature, I'm sure that Putin is quite prepared to ignore the corruption of some of the other oligarchs who are loyal to him.

NTV and TV6 have been taken over by Gazprom (loyal to Putin), and most of the rest of the electronic media are state owned. Thus the reason these questions were only asked by a small number of organisations in Russia is quite obviously due to state censorship. Also Putin himself said that these questions were blasphemous, well only if you believe that Putin is a god, which he probably does. Besides, you have merely attacked the people who ask these questions and not actually answered them yourself. You're a clever man, why don't you answer them?

Guess who runs the prostitution and drug trade in most of England and the rest of the EU? Yup, Chechin gangs. But you'll just cuddle them some more in England and tell them to be proud of their heritage, as their knifing your mum for fish and chips.

You're wrong. I believe that people who are professional criminals have to be seriously punished, giving a short custodial sentence to a repeat offender is not adequate. However, I also believe that people who are young or have committed a first offence should be given education or training instead of a custodial sentence, to prevent them from sliding down the slippery slope into a life of crime.

[Stavka2]

I love all the conspiracy charges you make. Here are some interesting things I've found about British law.

Gay Sex Scandal What's so interesting about this? Well it brings up some very unusual tenets of British law that definitly lean towards autocracy: Running a Disorderly House? Of which some one can be guilty of even if all activities in it are legal? Obscene Publications Squad? "A disorderly house is a place where activities have taken place that are deemed to be immoral, improper, indecent or illegal. It is quite possible to be found guilty of Running a Disorderly House when ALL the activities were legal - but the judge felt that they immoral."

Here's some statistics for people who think handguns (almost all in criminal hands) are responsible for murdering children.

Here are some nice statistics for you. "Guns were once carried only to commit the most serious offences, but police now say they are increasingly used by small-time crooks such as burglars and low-level drug dealers. "Nationally, one murder in 20 is now carried out with a firearm. The number of illegally held guns is estimated at three million, a third more than at the time of the 1996 Dunblane massacre." (Emphasis mine) and a nice history of handgun control in England. Sums it all up.

[Stavka2]

bump

[MarMema]

However, since the Russians are so keen to publicise these videos it can only help the government justify its punitive sweep operations against civilians in Chechnya.

You know what? You just are clueless. My husband and I put up our retirement funds to the INS for 3 years to bring an elderly couple from Krasnodar here, after we were at their daughter's home watching their former neighborhood, on TV, being attacked by chechens.
With bombs and machine guns. Right on the television set. Valentina was crying because she had left her parents back in Krasnodar. They are here now.
I cannot even begin to imagine how you can use logic, to suspect that the FSB even NEEDS to manufacture bomb incidents to make the Russians dislike the chechens. Most Russians, but then you wouldn't know this since you have never even been there, already KNOW about chechnya.

Instead of posting crap from human rights watch that you read on the internet, how about you go spend a month in Krasnodar, and talk to the people, see what they have lived, not read on the internet.

It's so incredibly stupid that you would even think the FSB was planting things to blow up Russians, when the chechen scum convict themselves - in their videotapes and on TV.
And in person in some parts of Russia as well. Parts that I have been to and helped people escape from - which is something that you too, could do, with all these supposedly humanitarian, altruistic desires of youth.

[David Hunter]

...tenets of British law that definitly lean towards autocracy: Running a Disorderly House? Of which some one can be guilty of even if all activities in it are legal? Obscene Publications Squad? "A disorderly house is a place where activities have taken place that are deemed to be immoral, improper, indecent or illegal. It is quite possible to be found guilty of Running a Disorderly House when ALL the activities were legal - but the judge felt that they immoral."

You're right about this. But as I said to you before I am a Republican and believe in scrapping the Monarchy, the House of Lords and adopting a bill of rights and a constitution.

The laws you speak of were conceived in Britain when the Monarchy and the aristocracy had far more control over the government than they do today. However, even today the House of Lords often vetos legislation that has been passed by the elected House of Commons. This is a disgrace and must end, but I doubt that it will in my life time.

"Guns were once carried only to commit the most serious offences, but police now say they are increasingly used by small-time crooks such as burglars and low-level drug dealers. "Nationally, one murder in 20 is now carried out with a firearm. The number of illegally held guns is estimated at three million, a third more than at the time of the 1996 Dunblane massacre." (Emphasis mine) and a nice history of handgun control in England. Sums it all up.

The Police are making a case for all their officers to carry firearms routinely, funny that, in a country where virtually all pistols are illegal. Because of a few well publicised incidents in which young children shot others in the face or eyes with air guns, the government is debating banning air guns. Ridiculous. Especially, when you consider that those children had their air guns illegally, because they were under the age of 16.

This article points out that the British Government has always frowned upon its subjects owning firearms. That's why gun liberalisation laws will never be passed in Britain. Its not the fault of liberals, its old British Government policy which has been enacted against the backdrop of the massacres.

I realised this before though, and I still don't believe that having the country swamped by firearms would help to lower the murder rate, even if it did decrease the number of burglaries and muggings. What Britain needs is more Police officers, residential youth training schemes for juvenile delinquents and tougher sentences for repeat offenders.

[MarMema]

The problem I have with the terrorism in Russia, is that when any kind of terrorist incident happens anywhere in Russia, Putin automatically blames it on 'Chechen scum' without any evidence.

Well I guess when you have seen enough bombings being bragged about, videotaped, televised, and spoken for, and when you know the nature of the beast, you can use common sense in these situations. If you know someone lies and they come to you and tell you a story that is difficult to believe, do you then say to yourself, "Oh, *this* time it must be true" ?

Putin doesn't need to invent a wheel that is already in full operation and displaying itself to the world on film. And he certainly doesn't need to go buy material to buy the wheel.

You contradict yourself. You say that Putin used the many chechen videos to get votes and then you say the Russian government had to plant bombs to get votes.

Could it be that the chechens are just basically scum and they really did do the bombings? Since they are, um, kind of known for liking to blow things up?
(You, too, can watch hours and hours and hours of chechens blowing up Russian buildings, soldiers, bridges and civilians right on the internet, DID YOU KNOW?
I particularly recommend "Operations of the Mujahideen - NEW!"

After you finish watching all those bombs go off, you come back and tell me they don't live to blow things up, especially things Russian. Come on, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. After this I have to conclude you are just another Russophobe/chechen supporter.

[MarMema]

buy materials to *build* the wheel, I mean.