Patton - War as he knew it.

Personal Archives | 05-09-02 | PsyOp

[jwh_Denver]

One book I read many years ago said that the 38 was the first plane to break the sound barrier

This may be true but out of all the WWII books I've read my understanding is that either the P38 or P51 approached the sound barrier it started to shake violently but did not break the sound barrier. Many pilots reported this phenomenon. Remember in the movie "The Right Stuff" when Chuck Yeager experienced the same problem of turbulence with his aircraft but once he went through it the plane settled down. This phenomenon was due to air compression against the plane the closer it came to the speed of sound. Once through it the air compression was behind the plane.

[Light Speed]

Airshows....Now I'm gonna be rumaging around thru Video cam tapes.
Combat aircraft info is selective..and biased..
A British pilot is always gonna glow over a Spitfire..and A Yank is gonna Say Long range P-51 like it was an Ace going down on the table.
Both are right..few men flew Spits and P-51's...one might have to go find a member from the U.S. air groups in North Africa to get an honest appraisal on both steads.
I was shocked to learn that the old Hawker Hurricane during the battle of Britian could out turn a Spit and a BF 109 E or F easily.
The BF/ME 109 series had one of the highest drag coeficients ..and the plane went into service with Willy Messerschmidt burying nasty data so that the aircraft would gain production status.
They inverted the engine..and thru the fuselage balance out totally..they had to add lead bars near the tail to get it fixed.
Even then..the plane torqued too much in one direction..and with the splayed landing gear..it was a killer.
During BofB nearly 1500 wrecked on take off and landing. Alot of pilots died...German web sites still cringe when you bring this up...
Oh yes..the war is not as over as we think!
Spitfire and Hurri pilots saw Me-109's wings fold in dives..they learned to push the Me-109 down hard and fast.. the aircraft had a trim wheel with poor stick movement..and yes...the wing roots were weak..another of Willy's cover ups.
Alot of German pilots that went near the deck were not shot down..they augered in like a missle.
But a kill was a kill..the plane was shot down..even thow a buddy saw differently.
The P-51...awesome plane..awesome..but then..who in the hell wants to be strapped to one for nearly 7 hours...
These Long range escort P-51 types would really have had to be in shape...not like a bomber were you could strech a bit or be relieved for a time!

[FlyVet]

Remember in the movie "The Right Stuff" when Chuck Yeager experienced the same problem of turbulence with his aircraft but once he went through it the plane settled down.

Truly, the violence in making the transition. Now I wonder about what I read, if it was mere folklore, or what. Can't see the Mustang going there, far too light and airy. That '38 though....a pair of I-beams with cross-braces...heh...that thing might have done it despite the straight wings. That Ugly Bastard.

[FlyVet]

I was shocked to learn that the old Hawker Hurricane during the battle of Britian could out turn a Spit and a BF 109 E or F easily.

Of course I only know what I read as far as history goes, whatever that means. What I know is that the Hurricane ruled down in the dirt, low level, while the Supermarine Spits got it done at altitude. In any case, the Brits won the Battle of Britain, against a superior force that had all the momentum. So, they must have done something right.

[FlyVet]

The P-51...awesome plane..awesome..but then..who in the hell wants to be strapped to one for nearly 7 hours... These Long range escort P-51 types would really have had to be in shape...not like a bomber were you could strech a bit or be relieved for a time!

Only bad thing I ever read about the Mustang was that darned water-cooling that made it so high-performance, making it vulnerable in the ground attack role, where it was used in Korea. A round through the radiator, and it was bye-bye.

[Light Speed]

Speaking of P-51's..
I have a flight sim....Microsoft WW-2 fighters over Europe.
You can choose from several aircraft..and also fly campains...The Battle of Britian...and U.S. operations in Europe.
In the sim..each aircraft handles differently at varied altitudes..along with its flight characteristics.
It had alot of time and research put into it..for authenticity and time movement.
A P-51 Just hurtles..but to much stick..or jerky touch..and it porpoises up and down and bucks...the plane really behaved like this in real flight.
The German fighters....you don't want to be in one below 3000 ft...Dogs...deflection angle...and patience..and the guy will turn into your fire.
Spits are carberated...climb to fast..turn and roll..and lose power.
If you enjoy aircombat..get this .. You can pick it up for around $20.00 now...the Pacific version just out last year is around 60.00.
In one days op..if you are a German pilot..you approach about 20 B-17's from the rear or below.
The 50 cal fire..is realistic.."Pop pop pop"..as you get closer it gets louder...as you knife thu the formation you get an B-17 engine smoking..and your Fw-190 is ringing like a Hail storm with impact rounds going in ...I was a ball of fire the first time I flew this....in the headset you could hear some German screaming..I'm not sure if its the FW-190 pilot freaking or his wing man telling him to bail out!

[in the Arena]

A rumor that eveolved out to the Battle for Bloody Ridge on Guadalcanal says that after the fight a captured Japanese officer wanted to see the "automatic artillery" the Marines were using...

[ProudEagle]

If I remember right he also had 4-engine bombers on the drawing board, as did the Japanese. Industrial might, sheer numbers, sure didn't hurt us, did it?

Roger that. We simply outproduced them with sustained material and numbers. I am no defender of the the Nazi vermin, but you have to give them credit. They also had brilliant military tacticians as well as the technology. Had Rommel been allowed to do (and supplied to do) what he wanted and sweep through Palestine and up through Persia and Greece, it would have stretched the war out for years. He would have commanded the Med and we would have been hard pressed to boot him out in any quick fashion.

And you're correct about the 4 engine job. Dornier had a jet on the drawing board that would have been capable of making New York, or worse had they obtained closer bases. Couple that with the fact that they were within a year or two of manufacturing the A bomb, now that's a scary thought. Thank God he was a nutcase and handed the allies some valuable tactical errors.

[ProudEagle]

I believe he would but for the political constraints. Constraints that did not exist during WWII.

True enough for today, but didn't FDR have to deal with a pacifist and isolationist movements in 1939? He was appeasing Congress from 1939 until 1941 and keeping us out of the fray. Eventually, FDR and the House and Senate were forced into the fight. What I don't want to see is GWB be forced to play catch up as well. 9/11 was a warning, and as Patton said, as good defense is a strong offense. It's just my humble opinion, I don't think we've slapped the arab world hard enough into realizing we could get real nasty if we wanted to. But then again, that's why I'd make a lousy politician or diplomat too :-)

[Vermont Lt]

While the technology of the equipment was substandard at the start of the war, the sheer volume and quality was not. Yes, the German Army had wonderful tanks. But they did not work. Yes they had grenades that we easier to throw, but they did not explode. Yes, they had '88s; but the shells did not detonate.

Yes, the US has great weapons--but if we keep them holstered, they do us no good.

[PsyOp]

Supposedly he put it in a suicide dive just to see how fast he could go, and reached Mach. Have you ever heard that one?

Yes I have. I think I read about it in a book titled "Fork-tailed Devils" which was written by a P-38 pilot who flew over europe. He describes going through that point just before breaking the barrier when the controls get so heavy you can't move them and coming out the other side back into controlled flight. If I recall correctly, the first time he experienced this he was running from a German fighter, and then later repeated it in an "experiment."

As for my knowledge about WWII air-combat tactics, it is all strictly acedemic. I became enamored of the "fighter aces" way back in grade school and have probably read every personal history and account of air combat from WWII through Vietnam. And Discovery Wings is my favorite channel next the the History Channel.

Part of it comes from my father having been a navy fighter jock (he flew A-4's). My eyesight kept me from ever getting accepted into military flight school myself though. I have flown private planes (finished ground school way back but could not afford to finish flight training), and have several hundred ours crewing Army choppers, including a little stick time. I guess you would call me a frustrated wanna-be fighter ace. LOL!

[PsyOp]

a captured Japanese officer wanted to see the "automatic artillery" the Marines were using...

And now that we finally have a system that could live up to that promise, Rumsfield is cancelling it. I hate to see the Crusader go...

[PsyOp]

True enough for today, but didn't FDR have to deal with a pacifist and isolationist movements in 1939?

Yes. But it still took two more years with half the world embroiled in war and massive military attack on the U.S. to get the country in general in the mood to fight an all out war. While we compare 911 to Pearl Harbor, the analogy falls short in many ways. The axis powers were national entities that could be easily defined, unlike terrorism. And the pacifists then did not have the practice and general concencus they have now (nor did they have our involvement in Vietnam and central/south America to point to for their argument). And lastly, he did not have to deal with an education system that teaches America is bad, minorities around the world are good.

[AFreeBird]

Any info on where you scooped the picture would be appreciated!

Sure. I got the picture from MustangsMustangs.com

[luckyluke]

Patton today would be considered a war criminal.

Why? I am not aware of any information that supports your statement.

[TheLurkerX]

Look, I have nothing but admiration for Patton. I'm just saying that if you fought a blood and guts war today, the way war should be fought, you'd have no shortage of @ssholes looking to string you up for imagined war crimes.

[luckyluke]

a blood and guts war... the way war should be fought

Sorry, I don't agree. Did you see the video of the Russian soldier being decapitated with a blunt knife by the Taliban in cold blood? There *are* such things as war crimes, and they do deserve to be condemned.

[Junior]

Any man who says he has battle fatigue is avoiding danger and forcing on those who have more hardihood than himself the obligation of meeting it. If soldiers would make fun of those who begin to show battle fatigue, they would prevent its spread, and also save the man who allows himself to malinger by this means from an afterlife of humiliation and regret. - General George S. Patton, Jr., War As I Knew It. 1947.

Considering battle fatigue, or shell shock, is an actual phenomenon that has deep physiological roots, Patton was speaking out of his ass on this one.

[jwh_Denver]

That '38 though....a pair of I-beams with cross-braces

I think I might be getting my planes mixed up. Wasn't it the P51 that had the huge arse engine that was so nose heavy? That's the plane (if correct here on the plane) they experienced the turbulence on the dives. Just a thought here; I seriously doubt a prop could go super sonic without a major major upgrade on the horsepower.

[patton]

Bertha Cortez Patton bump.