Let's Hear Nothing Of A "Draft" Unless We're Talking About Beer

ToogoodReports ^ | May 8, 2002 | Lee R. Shelton IV

[Eagle Eye]

Did you serve? I did, and I don't agree with a draft. How are you going to try to denigrate me?

[Tuor]

In "Starship Troopers" military service was required to be franchised. I don't believe it was necessary to be considered a *citizen*, only to be able to vote, which most people weren't interested in doing, anyway. It's been a while since I've read it (I've got a copy), so I may misremember.

Tuor

[ctdonath2]

"A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If they want to call up the militia, the right of the militia members to own their arms must be recognized. I want my M16; no M16, no draft.

[freeeee]

if enough young people just will not volunteer to defend this country, perhaps the country is deficient in some way.

More than enough people have volunteered to defend our country. The problem is that they are being used to pacify and babysit other countries. 140 other countries, to be precise.

And to add to the problem, there are many people, such as myself, who don't join precisely because of this chronic misuse of the military.

Bring our troops home from Europe, Bosnia, Serbia, etc... , treat them with decency and respect, pay them a fair wage, and you'll find that when the US needs defense, (not play World's Policeman), we will have plenty of manpower.

[ctdonath2]

military service is voluntary, but the price one pays for citizenship, and the right to vote or hold public office.

Ya got that backwards. The price to govern me and request my military service is recognition of my right of citizenship and right to vote or hold public office, among other rights enumerated in the Constitution.

No recognition of citizenship = no recognition of governance.

[Sir Percy Hot Spurs]

If you want to take over a country one way is to have all your people join their military...The only way to prevent this is to have a draft...Sir Percy Hot Spurs

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"In "Starship Troopers" military service was required to be franchised. I don't believe it was necessary to be considered a *citizen*, only to be able to vote..."

That seems like a distinction without a difference. The fact that a good many people fail to vote does not mean that the RIGHT to vote is not one of the perquisites of "citizenship".

Also, remember that Heinlein wrote STARSHIP TROOPERS for a juvenile audience- the details of libertarian philosophy were incidental to the action- adventure story. This particular scheme never struck me as being well thought-out, anyway- and I read this book when I was 12 years old!

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

You make a very good point!

[ctdonath2]

There were two overlapping yet separate issues in WWII: defense of this country, and defense of other countries. There will be no difficulty obtaining volunteers to defend this country (we field 14 million snipers each year annually in the "Deer Season" war games). There always will be difficulty obtaining volunteers to defend other countries. Do not confuse the two. There may seem a gray area between defending other countries and defending this country, based on the idea that defending them ultimately defends us; the dividing line is whether you can get enough volunteers.

[steve-b]

To address Jack Kelly's statement, I would counter that if we were truly serious about winning the war on terror, and serious about homeland security, we'd better think seriously about reinstating the right to keep and bear arms.

Indeed. Since the message just won't sink into some skulls, the only effective defensive action on 9/11 was taken by private citizens, not the government.

[Beenliedto]

do you think we could have put twelve million men under arms, and won WW II without a draft?

While I think the answer to the question is self evident, there is the broader question of whether we should have been involved in ANY of the wars (including the late misunderstanding of 1861-1865) for which men have been conscripted.

Perhaps if we could look at ourselves in that light, we might have to answer to many of the causes of the near police state in which we now live.

War is only good for the state.

[babylonian]

I say, reinstitute the draft and declare all illegals legal.

[Tuor]

I viewed it the other way around: that the action-adventure story was the surface stuff and the libertarianism was the real meat of it. Of course, I read it while I was an adult. Of course, you're right in that it was a Young Adult book.

The distinction, to my mind, if we're going to dice words (which I have a bad tendency to do) is that you can be a citizen insofar as you receive certain protections from the State and are attached to it in various ways, without necessarily being able to vote. It is sort of like having a chocolate cake without any frosting: good, but not as good as it ought to be.

On a practical level, I agree with those who say that restricting enfranchisement in such a manner is against the intent of the Founding Fathers. I don't agree with the idea. However, there *are* certain positive aspects to doing such a thing; sadly, they would be greatly overshadowed by the injustice inherent in such a system.

Tuor

[freeeee]

Thank you sir, and my thanks for your service to our country.

[steve-b]

It might be melded with the suggestion in Twain's "The Curious Republic of Gondor" (which Heinlein cited in his essay on ST) -- every citizen has one vote, and can earn extra votes in various ways.

[Eagle Eye]

That said, I tend toward the position that, if enough young people just will not volunteer to defend this country, perhaps the country is deficient in some way. Perhaps in ways that a renewed draft could not cure. If so, we are doomed, anyway.

Amen.

[ctdonath2]

Just stop infringing on the 2nd Amendment and there will be sufficient armarments. Pump up the DCM/CMP to provide free/inexpensive proper training voluntarily. Between those two simple steps, we'll have the superior equivalent of the Swiss model.

[Protagoras]

Another eloquent opponent of the draft was former President Ronald Reagan who in a 1979 column on conscription said:

"...it rests on the assumption that your kids belong to the state. If we buy that assumption then it is for the state - not for parents, the community, the religious institutions or teachers - to decide who shall have what values and who shall do what work, when, where and how in our society. That assumption isn't a new one. The Nazis thought it was a great idea."

The military draft is nothing more or less than a form of slavery.