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The rise of neo-paganism (No, this one is NOT SATIRE)
National Review Online ^ | 27th September 1999 | Roger Scruton

Posted on 05/04/2002 7:45:25 PM PDT by Tomalak

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Excellent stuff. I am so sick of hearing non-pagans talking about Wicca as a legitimate belief and even a "beautiful idea". It is empty, vile and wicked.
1 posted on 05/04/2002 7:45:25 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Tomalak
As long as neither neo-paganism nor any other "belief system" infringes on my person or property, I don't give a rat's @ss what people believe/preach/practice/etc.

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson, 1781

2 posted on 05/04/2002 7:50:39 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: Tomalak
>>America was founded by Christian Puritans

And intolerant ones at that. It's interesting to note that many who fled religious-based persecution in England, ended up practicing their own religious persecution once they established their own colony/beachhead in the New World. Rhode Island (via Roger Williams) was perhaps the first colony/region to extend *real* religous freedom to people who did not necessarily acknowledge/practice the religion of the colony.

3 posted on 05/04/2002 7:54:20 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: LiberalBuster
And if it is your daughter, or your niece, or your neighbour's kid, do you start to care then?
4 posted on 05/04/2002 7:55:22 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Tomalak
Yes, it's a good analysis. As Chesterton and others have said, if you stop believing in God, you do not end up believing in nothing, but in anything. People desperately need some kind of magic, transcendence, higher meaning, or imaginative richness in their lives. If they lack the gift of real religion they may turn to harmful substitutes.

Fantasy and paganism are not necessarily always and immediately evil, as you seem to assume. There were virtuous pagans, such as the Roman Cicero. But Cicero have access to Christianity and then reject it, as many people do today.

Some wiccans are probably well-meaning and on balance more good than evil. But dabbling in that sort of thing can be very dangerous, and it can certainly turn into evil by degrees.

5 posted on 05/04/2002 7:58:24 PM PDT by Cicero
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To: Cicero
Sorry, "Cicero have" was meant to be "Cicero didn't have," but my computer swallowed a word.
6 posted on 05/04/2002 7:59:45 PM PDT by Cicero
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To: Cicero
Fantasy and paganism are not necessarily always and immediately evil, as you seem to assume.

Whatever contempt I have for Wicca, I don't have that same dislike for individual Wiccans. Most of them are pretty dim and silly people, looking for a meaning that in fact only Christ can give them. I do find the general sense that people somehow believe Wicca to be worthy of the respect you would give to Buddhism or Judaism worrying though. Wicca is not a serious faith, and it is a loathesome doctrine so far as it exists at all. More to the point, it is a cynical attempt to cash in on the desires of rather unhappy young women to exert some sort of supernatural control over their lives.

7 posted on 05/04/2002 8:02:49 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Tomalak
Care about what? I only care if it negatively impacts myself or my family. Otherwise, the religious practices/observances of others does not concern me in the least. Should I care what/who/how people worship if it does not impact me?

"Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." --H.L. Mencken

8 posted on 05/04/2002 8:03:26 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: LiberalBuster
That's because the "fled religious persecution" line about the colonists is 100% BS. They were looking to establish single religion zones. A bunch of the colonists first went to Holand (which at the time had religious freedom), but Holland wouldn't put up with them (for them religious freedom meant across the board religious freedom, no zoning). So they came over here and made their colonies. To say the nation was founded by Puritans is also ignoring places like the Colony of Virginia (which was Catholic) and a few other. Our founding fathers didn't have a problem with that as long as it didn't extend past state boundaries (no federal church, state or local level do what you want, Virginia for a long time funneled tax dollars from non-Catholics to the Catholic Church, Catholics got a cut in their taxes for this). Then in the middle of the 20th century certain idiots started screwing with the definition of the words in the Constitution and Bill of Rights and it's all been downhill from there.

As for the terrible rise of neo-paganism, some of my best friends are pagans, no big deal. Instead of decrying all this supposed evil these people need to be asking themselves why people are fleeing Christianity in droves.

9 posted on 05/04/2002 8:04:27 PM PDT by discostu
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To: LiberalBuster
A general concern for your fellow man and your culture and society? If you only care about your immediate family, why post on a political board at all?
10 posted on 05/04/2002 8:05:59 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Cicero
As Chesterton and others have said, if you stop believing in God, you do not end up believing in nothing, but in anything.

Chesterson should stick to topics he knows. When one stops believing in God they turn to believing in themselves. At least some do. Like everything else in this world gross generalizations will be wrong more often than they're right. With 6 billion people on the planet predicting the hows, whys and results of any individual thought within any individual person is an excercise in foolishness.

11 posted on 05/04/2002 8:08:31 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Cicero
>>Yes, it's a good analysis. As Chesterton and others have 
>>said, if you stop believing in God, you do not end up 
>>believing in nothing, but in anything. People desperately 
>>need some kind of magic, transcendence, higher meaning, 
>>or imaginative richness in their lives. If they lack the 
>>gift of real religion they may turn to harmful 
>>substitutes.

Of course, you (and Chesterton) were only speaking for yourselves (not all of humanity). Not all of us are so weak as to be unable to accept a vast world of uncertainty. We aren't all "desperate" for an explanation of the "big questions" of life. Those who are "desperate" to fulfill such a void will do so according to their upbringing. If you're born a Muslim AND you are an individual incapable of dealing with uncertainty, you will calm that uncertainty by believing in the Muslim religion your parents bring you up in. Ditto for Christianity, Judaism, etc. Sure, adult-conversions do occur, but (by-and-large) people who need an explanation for the uncertainties of life end up using the (religious) explanation their parents gave them.

12 posted on 05/04/2002 8:09:46 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: discostu
Sorry, but Chesterton was spot on target. If it isn't astrology, paganism, Fundamentalist Islam or something, then it is humanism, moral relativism and some other silly doctrine. Filling the natural human need for God with something else doesn't work, but all who need God try it.
13 posted on 05/04/2002 8:11:44 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Tomalak
>>General concern for your fellow man and your culture
>>and society? If you only care about your immediate 
>>family, why post on a political board at all?

You sound like a "greater good" liberal. But, I'll humor you.

Care about what? I only care if it negatively impacts society. Otherwise, the religious practices/observances of others does not concern me in the least. Should I care what/who/how people worship if it does not impact society?

14 posted on 05/04/2002 8:12:02 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: Tomalak
Of course, you (and Chesterton) were only speaking for yourselves (not all of humanity).

Rubbish. Chesterton said that if people don't believe in God they believe in anything. He was not talking about me or himself. He was talking about everyone. Now either he was right or he was wrong, but he was making general claims.

15 posted on 05/04/2002 8:14:17 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: Tomalak
Great Article!
16 posted on 05/04/2002 8:15:38 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Tomalak
Sorry, Chesterson doesn't know what he's talking about. I've been an atheist for 20 years and haven't played with any of that stuff. Once again, like in so many of these threads, you have people on one side trying to tell the people on the other side what they think. Well you don't have to wonder. Here's what I think: the only thing I believe in is me, I know what I'm capable of and I know how to make my life work. I don't believe in God, Allah or Baphomet. I also don't believe in the fortune telling powers of the stars, the lines in your hand or the intestines of slaughtered animals. I do not believe in nothing and I do not believe in just anything. I believe in me.
17 posted on 05/04/2002 8:16:29 PM PDT by discostu
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To: Tomalak
Care about what? I only care if it negatively impacts society. Otherwise, the religious practices/observances of others does not concern me in the least. Should I care what/who/how people worship if it does not impact society?

Well, I agree with you. And here is the crunch. Does it make a positive impact on society to have witchcraft revered as some sort of realistic, respectable doctrine? To have Wiccans honestly (in their mind) describe their cult as some sort of morally based ideal? I think it is in society's interest that such people be countered. Surely you agree that Christianity must be supreme above pagan, immoral superstition?

18 posted on 05/04/2002 8:16:47 PM PDT by Tomalak
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To: discostu
>>That's because the "fled religious persecution" line 
>>about the colonists is 100% BS. They were looking to 
>>establish single religion zones.

I don't know what their intentions were ... so I can't judge whether their reasons were genuine or not. All I can judge is the historical reality of what the colonies became ... and it was not *true* religious freedom. For example, people were often forced to pay the salaries of clergy belonging to the colony-approved religion. And you were considered lucky to not be harrassed for acknowledging a religion/denomination not recognized by the colony.

19 posted on 05/04/2002 8:19:51 PM PDT by LiberalBuster
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To: Tomalak
Do you actually know anything about Wicca? Of course not. The highest precept of their faith is "do no harm". Not a bad start for a moral foundation I think.
20 posted on 05/04/2002 8:20:08 PM PDT by discostu
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