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To: Twodees
No need to apologize, you weren't "interfering," you were discussing the issue. We're going to need all the help and input we can get out here to stanch the rights bleed we're suffering, and I welcome and encourage your participation in this thread. Seriously.

The problem is that due to the way the initiative process works, we have to get this on the ballot then get a majority of the state to vote for it.

The current state of affairs in California jurisprudence is that one has a constitutional right to defend life and liberty as set forth in article 1, section 1, but you don't have a right to use a gun to do so:

If plaintiffs [gun owners] are implying that a right to bear arms is one of the rights recognized in the California Constitution's declaration of rights, they are simply wrong. No mention is made in it of a right to bear arms.
[Kasler v. Lockyer (2000)]

If we just put forth an initiative stating "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," the first hurdle would be to get anyone to vote for it in the face of hysterical and heavily financed fear-mongering put forth by the likes of Brady, McKelvy, and Sugarman, and the second hurdle would be to fend off the judicial jokers who argue that "bearing arms" means only in a military context. The wording of the Second Amendment hasn't done us much good thus far, has it?

I mean, out here we have California National Guardsmen, the only people truly protected by the Second Amendment according to our Federal District Court, being pulled from duty because they can't pass their firearms proficiency tests, most likely because they are no longer allowed to purchase AR-15 rifles with which to practice thanks to Senator Perata's SB-23. If the Second Amendment doesn't even protect National Guardsmen's ownership of AR-15 rifles, you can see the predicament we're in out here. We have no recourse in the courts, a fact further underscored by the Calif. Supreme Court decision regarding gun show preemption.

Section 2 takes away the biggest bludgeon that the lying, cheating, craven anti-gun crowd can use against us. It shows "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind," to borrow a phrase from the Declaration of Independence, and gives us that much more of a chance to get it passed. Tying it to the existing right to defend life and liberty in Article I, Section 1, rather than having it stand alone, is another such strategy. It puts the gun-haters in the untenable position of arguing against the established right to defense of life and liberty.

I'd be very interested to read further detail regarding your disagreement with Section 2. What do you envision happening? Why do you see these exemptions as hooks on which to hang further infringements?

The restraining order exemption requires a finding of violent conduct before it applies. They would have a very hard time defining the age of a "minor" upwards, since that would affect voting rights. Felons are already subject to a raft of regulations restricting their rights, including their right to vote, and exemping firearms from such regulation is a non-starter. And finally, "mentally incompotent" has a specific legal definition in California just like "strict scrutiny" does. It's set forth in another section of the California code, and redefining it would have a similar kind of ripple effect that redefining "minor" would.

31 posted on 05/05/2002 4:05:29 PM PDT by mvpel
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To: mvpel
The judiciary doesn't have the basis for the military only argument when militia isn't mentioned. Look at section 2 and imagine the myriad arguments that communist lawyers (which most politicians are) can come up with for inclusion of their latest idea for disarmament. Disarming anyone without a trial and without imprisoning them is simply wrong headed.

I can't see the good in enacting an amendment which says in effect" the right of citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed except when politicians decide that it should be infringed." There is no justification for disarming anyone who is the subject of a restraining order. That hook, added to your amendment makes your amendment worthless.

IMO, the amendment reading as you stated" The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is perfect. You're going to be atacked by hysterical commies no matter what you propose, so why propose something which contains any concession to them at all? I would submit it the way you described it in one sentence and let them stop it if they can. All of this trying to control the outcome by anticipating the arguments of some people who should be hanged anyway is just going to guarantee failure.

Go on the attack. Leave the defensive posture to the commies for a change. Just my opinion, of course.

32 posted on 05/05/2002 4:27:35 PM PDT by Twodees
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