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To: TopQuark
"There is nothing new in these arguments. Their form is the same: they all something semingly true (the Jews indeed embraced communism en masse), but make a wrong attribution or distort the facts. "

How is it "distorting" the facts? I don't see how it is distorting the facts to say the truth, that the Jews supported Communism more than anybody else.

"The Jews have embraces socialist and communism precisely because for the first time in European history someone promised them equality and the ability to get outside the Pal of Settlement in the Russian Empire."

If this is so then why did the Western Jews in the USA, France, Britain (who even had a Jewish Prime Minister)and Germany, which had relative equality, also support Communism and Socialism in such great disproportion to their numbers? There were also other oppressed minorities in the Russian Empire, including the Poles, and they did not support Communism as disproportionately as the Jews did.

"Which explains to my original remark: in all times, then-current problems in Europe were blamed on the Jews. "

The problem goes much father back but again it is not as one-sided as you make it sound. The Jews engaged in certain practices that were objectionable to the Christians. They often allied themselves with cruel monarchs and served them as tax collectors, for instance. Of course the common people then hated the Jews for being the ones that taxed them to death. This often resulted in pogroms. When the Jew-hatred got out of hand the monarchs who had allied themselves with the Jews then kicked out the Jews and misrepresented themselves to the people as the ones who saved them from the Jewish tax-collectors. The media nowadays makes it look like those pogroms were unprovoked but in fact they were often the result of Jewish tax-collecting for the monarchs.

Thank you for the courteousness in your posts.

17 posted on 05/03/2002 1:53:55 AM PDT by Marduk
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To: Marduk
"The Jews have embraces socialist and communism precisely because for the first time in European history someone promised them equality and the ability to get outside the Pal of Settlement in the Russian Empire."

If this is so then why did the Western Jews in the USA, France, Britain (who even had a Jewish Prime Minister)and Germany, which had relative equality, also support Communism and Socialism in such great disproportion to their numbers? There were also other oppressed minorities in the Russian Empire, including the Poles, and they did not support Communism as disproportionately as the Jews did.


The way I explained this to my brother yesterday was that Carl Marx parents were german jews who converted to Christianity. All well and good, but to understand the particular affinity of Jews for Communism you have to go back to the Old Testament story of Joseph. His brothers sold him down to Egypt into slavery. There he made good. But how did he succeed? First, he was a good business man. He served his master Phodipher so well he was made head of his master's household. Second, he had a strong moral character. He didn't sleep with his master's wife. (His fidelity in fact got him thrown in jail as he refused to sleep with Phodipher's wife even after she begged him to do so.) He was soon running things in Jail as well. Third, Joseph had a good understanding of human psychology. He interpreted the dreams (like Daniel and Sigmund Freud) of two of the Pharoh's servants who got on the Pharoh's bad side. One would die by the pharoh's hand and one would be restored to the pharoh's court. And so it happened. One day the pharoh had a dream and his servant remembered Joseph and so suggested that the Pharoh spring Joseph from Jail and have him interpret the Pharoh's dream. This the pharoh did. Joseph interpreted Pharoh's dreams to mean that there would be seven years of plenty and seven years of famine. The pharoh was so impressed that he made Joseph head minister of all Egypt. So Joseph filled up all the graineries of the Pharoh during the fat years. When the seven famine years came the Egyptians began to starve. They went to joseph for food. First they sold all their livestock to Joseph/pharoh for food. Then they sold all their land to joseph/pharoh for food. Finally they sold themselves into slavery to joseph/pharoh. The egyptians became slaves in their own land to the God/King pharoh in the land ministered by Joseph.

At this point its important to understand that the relationship of the Egyptians to the Pharoh and property is EXACTLY the relationship that Carl Marx envisioned of the workers to property and the state.

There's one small caveat to the story. The only people in the land of Egypt who were not slaves to the pharoh were Joseph's family who came down from Israel which also suffered during the famine years.

So why was communism so popular among Jews? It had a familiar ring.
19 posted on 05/03/2002 7:37:21 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Marduk
TQ: "There is nothing new in these arguments. Their form is the same: they all something seemingly true (the Jews indeed embraced communism en masse), but make a wrong attribution or distort the facts. "

M: How is it "distorting" the facts? I don't see how it is distorting the facts to say the truth, that the Jews supported Communism more than anybody else.

I explicitly stated that I accept this as a fact --- twice if not more. Also, in the preceding sentence, there are two patterns suggested. Yet, you argue against what we both agree on.

The above-given is a case of wrong attribution, not distortion.

TQ: "The Jews have embraces socialist and communism precisely because for the first time in European history someone promised them equality and the ability to get outside the Pal of Settlement in the Russian Empire."

M: If this is so then why did the Western Jews in the USA, France, Britain (who even had a Jewish Prime Minister) To the best of my knowledge, U.K. has never had a Jewish Prime Minister).

and Germany, which had relative equality, also support Communism and Socialism in such great disproportion to their numbers?

This is a legitimate, valid question, to which you actually already gave a partial answer. The Jews indeed had relative equality, they were emancipated but not accepted.

As for France, it is the Dreyfus affair that occurred right at the time under discussion.

As for the U.S., most of the Jews who came here came not even from Germany (that was in early and mid-1880s) but from Poland and Ukraine, at that very time. They were no different in this regard from those who stayed behind.

There were also other oppressed minorities in the Russian Empire, including the Poles, and they did not support Communism as disproportionately as the Jews did. Correct. This is because these minorities: (i) remained on their own land, (ii) could rightly attribute their inequality to the lack of national independence, (iii) could hope that, once they regain independence, their inequality would go away. None of that applied to the Jews. They had no land of their own; the acceptance by Gentiles was the only thing they could hope for.

TQ: "Which explains to my original remark: in all times, then-current problems in Europe were blamed on the Jews. "

M: The problem goes much father back but again it is not as one-sided as you make it sound. The Jews engaged in certain practices that were objectionable to the Christians. They often allied themselves with cruel monarchs and served them as tax collectors, for instance.

That is an example of incorrect attribution of a fact. It is true that many Jews served as tax collectors and in other capacities in finance. It is absolutely wrong to say that they aligned themselves with cruel monarchs. I do not even know where to begin.

Well, to begin, this was not a very active choice on their part: in most of Europe, Jews were prohibited from owning the land, in addition to engaging in specified trades. There was not much else the Jews could do for most of European history. The enlightenment --- which did come to the West, gradually allowed them to enter professions, but this occurred very recently, in 1880s.

Another related charge advanced against the Jews is that some of them were engaged in lending, charging interest. The Christians are taught that interest is immoral and the lending practice is sinful. Economy is economy, it requires lending. This function was essentially left to the Jews and, where applicable, Arabs. Now they are blamed for it.

Next, why is it that the Jews allegedly aligned themselves with cruel monarchs? What happened when a benevolent monarch was in power? Did the Jewish tax collectors quit the profession then? Clearly not. SO why are they not given credit for "aligning themselves" with kind monarchs, why does credit go only one way?

Further, if they alighted themselves with monarchs --- and you think that the populous did not like it -- why is it that the monarchs themselves remained anti-Semitic. It is well known, for instance that Kishinev (sp?) pogroms in the beginning of XX century were initiated at the top echelons of the government. In the very least, why did the monarchs not protect their Jewish population, which you allege to have "aligned" with them? The answer is that the reason was elsewhere.

Furthermore, the idea of anyone "aligning" himself with cruel monarchs against the people is a Marxist one. Also, even if true, the more powerful people --- the generals of the army, the nobility --- that aligned themselves with cruel monarchs --- why are they and their offspring not hated for centuries?

Finally, even the "fact" is distorted: there were not that many tax collectors among the Jews. Those few that actually did have that occupation were simply more noticed because they were... well, the Jews, not one of "us."

You have adopted an economic justification of anti-Semitism, Marduk. This version is well-known: when the communists finnally turned anti-Semitic, they have tried to "explain" the "justifiable rage" of the masses by these economics-based allegations: in their system, everything is economics and the strugge of economic classes, remember?

This "economics" is a misattribution of selectively collected fact. But, even more importantly, economics has alsmost nothing to do with anti-Semitism in Europe. Here is just one of myriad examples, well documents, which yu can find with great ease, This is a part of the Law of Theodosius, passed on January 31, 439 (("Novella III: Concerning Jews, Samaritans, Heretics, And Pagans)") --- shortly after the conversion of the Roman rulers.

Wherefore, although according to an old saying [of the Greek Hippocrates, the "father" of medicine] "no cure is to be applied in desperate sicknesses," nevertheless, in order that these dangerous sects which are unmindful of our times may not spread into life the more freely, in indiscriminate disorder as it were, we ordain by this law to be valid for all time:

No Jew - or no Samaritan who subscribes to neither [the Jewish nor the Christian] religion - shall obtain offices and dignities; to none shall the administration of city service be permitted; nor shall any one exercise the office of a defender [that is, overseer] of the city. Indeed, we believe it sinful that the enemies of the heavenly majesty and of the Roman laws should become the executors of our laws…

Moreover, for the same reason, we forbid that any synagogue shall rise as a new building. [Fewer synagogues meant less chance of Christians becoming Jews.]…

On the one hand, whoever has built a synagogue must realize that he has worked to the advantage of the Catholic church [which will confiscate the building]; on the other hand, whoever has already secured the badge of office shall not hold the dignities he has acquired…

Most Jews, for most part of the European history were rather poor. The recorded history, which until the advent of Marxism concentrated on the deeds of the monarchs and generals rather than general populous, recorded an occasional Jewish doctor and an occasional Jewish bookkeeper on the service of the rulers. For each such doctor, there were literally hundreds and thousands of simple workers who weaved buckets, milked cows, minor merchants that would buy produce and deliver it to the market, repaired watches, artisans, etc. It is only in about XIX century that they started to enter profession is noticeable quantities, and only in Western Europe. Russia, for instance, had an infamous quota system, allowing only a miniscule proportion of Jews to enter the universities as students.

Of course the common people then hated the Jews for being the ones that taxed them to death.

Another misattribution: there has never been a monarch or duke that would allow his subordinate to set the tax rates. Whether the tax collector was Jewish or not, he merely executed his employer's will. Why do we not hear about the estates of Christian tax collectors being constantly burned by the angry crowd? Why are the stories of these people not past from generation to generation? Instead, we hear only about the "Jewish tax collectors." We hear this so often that you even write about this with the clause "of course." There is nothing natural about this, Marduk.

This often resulted in pogroms. When the Jew-hatred got out of hand the monarchs who had allied themselves with the Jews then kicked out the Jews and misrepresented themselves to the people as the ones who saved them from the Jewish tax-collectors. Perhaps, in some instances that was the case. But most certainly, this does not even describe, let alone explain, the millennia of persecution. This is because there were only few of such instances --- with very lasting consequences . -- but very few nonetheless. The Jews were expelled from England, after a serious of riots, in 1290. They have not been seen there for about 400 years after that.

Incidentally, the riots had nothing to do with tax collection. The first recorded blood libel --- alleging that Jews kill Christian children to make Matzo for Passover --- is that of Norwich, in 1144. Here is an image from 1462, portrays the martyrdom of a three year-old boy Andrew: he is held down while his throat is slit; the perpetrators are clearly marked as Jews by their clothes and turbans (the distinguishing mark that, by a Church decree, the Jews had to wear)
There is even a whole Austrian Blood Libel cult --- of Anderl (Andrew) von Rinn, which originated in XV and became particularly popular in XVII. To shed some light on the "Enlightened" Europe and "economic" origins of anti-Semitism, here is an update by Veronika Schoennegger of the University of Innsbruck, Austria] (emphasis mine - TQ)

Some years ago, the bishop of Innsbruck [Bishop Stecher] tried to forbid the anti-Semitic cult and the body of Anderl was transferred from the church to the churchyard of Judenstein in 1985. And in 1994 the cult was officially forbidden and Anderl was supposed to become a symbol of antisemitism and of crimes against little children. Nevertheless, some very conservative people make a procession to his grave every year.
This is presently, in the third millennium. This is in the enlightened Western Europe. And this has nothing to do with tax collection and economics.

It appears to me, Marduk, that you are an honest person, trying to arrive at a conclusion of "an issue," which is often brought up. It appears to me --- and I may be wrong, of course --- that the version and explanation of history you have been presented, together with the standards that somehow the Jews (and they only) must satisfy, leads you to the conclusions you have made.

I have made this and preceding post so extensive to show you that "not all is well" with the knowledge base that had been presented to you. I am not a historian to give exhaustive accounts, nor does my occupation permit me go into such details regularly. I just hope that I gave you enough to question your conclusions, to seek alternative and/or additional sources. You may find the short book by Sartre (which I posted here) to be of interest as well.

Regards, TQ.

22 posted on 05/03/2002 11:45:32 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Marduk
The examples you use are one of the root causes of European anti Semitism. In many ways for the jews, they were in a position where it became: da&&ed if you do and da**ed if you don't. Poland was a perfect example of using the Jews first for the Lords to ammass wealth then as a scapegoat to divert the peasants from noticing the amount of $$ the aristocracy actually had (not to mention the disparity in quality of life).
29 posted on 05/03/2002 8:09:21 PM PDT by CARepubGal
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