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To: LarryLied
"Separation of Church and State" is a recent liberal construct. It has no constutional basis.

You might be interested in an 1802 letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baptists who were being persecuted because they were not part of the Congregationalist establishment of Connecticut: Jefferson Letter

The 1791 First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

To me that says keep government out of religion. It also says CFR is clearly unconstitutional. If you use the First Amendment to fight CFR, are you going to ignore the rest of the First Amendment as far as religion is concerned? You practice what religion you want, and I'll practice mine. Keep government (and government schools) out of it.

47 posted on 05/02/2002 8:46:18 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
You practice what religion you want, and I'll practice mine. Keep government (and government schools) out of it.

Better than that, let's stamp out the abomination of government schools altogether so that no faction can use government force to impose their belief system on others against their will. Religion is certainly pervasive enough to survive without government sponsorship. Isn't it? Without government school monopolies the free market would spring into action providing schools to serve the varying needs of the community and nobody would be forced to pay for, or participate in, the promotion of doctrine they oppose. Frankly, I don't see how an honest christian can stand in support of the continuation of government run schools.

48 posted on 05/02/2002 9:03:01 PM PDT by Jolly Rodgers
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To: rustbucket
Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut was prompted by a widespread rumor that Congregationalistism was about to become the national religion. At that time, Congregationalists in Connecticut were supported by state taxes. Jefferson was a politician and he was attempting to put to rest Baptists fears.

To establish a rapport with the Baptists (Jefferson was a Unitarian , a group closely allied with the feared Congregationalists), Jefferson borrowed from the words of Roger Williams, a prominent Baptist preacher:

"When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world.."

The "wall" metaphor was one directional. The church was to be protected from incursion from the state not the other way around.

This is made evident by the following:

From Affinities and Animosities: Universalists and Unitarians in the Formative Period :

When, in late 1820 and early 1821, Massachusetts went through the exercise of revising its Constitution, the attempt to separate church and state was opposed successfully by the eloquent Daniel Webster, among others. Channing, and a number of other Unitarian ministers, sided with Webster. In an eloquent sermon in December 1820, titled Religion a Social Principle, Channing defended the union of church and state, arguing that religion is not merely a personal matter between God and human beings: ". . .Therefore, Society ought, through its great organ and representative, which is government, as well as by other methods, to pay homage to God, and express its obligation."



Daniel Webster and Unitarians won that debate. The Unitarian and Congregational churches continued to be funded by state taxes for over ten more years.

Thomas Jefferson wrote on June 22, 1822:

"I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one God is reviving and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."

The question arises that if Jefferson's Danbury letter does advocate a separation of church and state as some claim it does, what was Jefferson doing proselytizing for and being in a congregation which opposed such a notion?

Channing was the most prominent Unitarian minister of the day. Jefferson surely knew about the debate which had raged one year before he made the comment above.

49 posted on 05/02/2002 9:11:05 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: rustbucket
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Isn't that what the ACLU has been doing with the help of federal courts all these years (and in this case)?

Sing it anyway, nobody can do a damn thing about it.

123 posted on 05/03/2002 12:09:26 PM PDT by hattend
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