Army To Supply 'Morning After' Pill To Female Soldiers (Israel)

Jerusalem Post ^

[a_witness]

Whatever law it is by which you remain under the mistaken notion that the newly conceived life is "part of" the mother's body and not a wholly distinct human (Jewish) life.

Do you object to the law against adultery then ?

[Askel5]

Why should I object to that?

I don't object to any of the Ten Commandments and believe that -- given the way they appear in whole or in part throughout human civilizations despite their proximity in time or place -- think the case can be made for adultery's being an objective evil.

This is why -- although certainly secondary to the State's sanctioning and encouraging of abortion for population control purposes -- the State's consistent deconstruction of marriage and encouraging of "de facto" relationships is so alarming to me.

We seem to be making an actuality -- by choice and by law -- of the "winged eros" sort of free love by which citizens merely registered themselves as "married" with the State but there were no particular obligations like fidelity which applied.

Once a person was no longer feeling fulfilled or "in love", the could just dissolved the marriage.

Again, it is this acting on "consequence free" passions (thanks to the State's perks of abortion, birth control, no-fault divorce, etc. etc.), by which the State ends up controlling us most closely ... even regulating our reproduction.

[a_witness]

Why should I object to that?

You don't seem content with what has been revealed in the Scriptures. If an explicit law against abortion were in the Torah (as for adultery, incest, bestiality, murder, manslaughter, etc.), all would be clear. As it is, as a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth.

Even the book of Matthew has:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Askel5]

As it is, as a general rule, abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term or through the act of childbirth.

Hey ... I appreciate the link.

How do you decide between the authority of different poskim? Is it all a matter of personal preference for one or another's intepretation?

I've been transcribing these tapes I hope to have permission to post here soon (once I have someone who speaks Hebrew help me proofread the terms and phrases he includes). As a Catholic, of course, the notion of sects or conflicting opinions that cannot be decided by a recognized single authority is alien to me. Just as I've learned a lot about Protestantism here on the forum (never realized Lutheranism and Calvinism were eponymous faiths, even! =), I'm trying to learn more about Judaism.

I'm particularly struck by Rabbi Waldenburg's exceptions into the second trimester for Tay Sachs children. I guess I'll never quite understand how it is subjecting a child to a speedy abortion somehow saves them from the suffering that is a natural death after many years of life.

There is a Jewish attorney in our offices with whom I've had some long talks on this very subject. His second son died at age 5 or so from Tay Sachs. Would he have traded the years they had together to spare his boy, his wife, his sons, himself the suffering. Absolutely not. Does he understand the aborting of others or the sifting of embryos to subvert God's will that some children -- particularly those of especially pure heritage -- be struck down with Tay Sachs? Indeed.

He is a most wonderful man. Very thoughtful, very kind, truly charitable and possessed of that silent strength and wisdom that comes from true suffering. I'll bet he's probably already in touch with the UPenn guy but I may pass the link on just to be sure. He spends a great deal of his personal time working with parental support groups and closely following the progress of embryonic stem cell testing and other related issues.

I think sometimes that folks get so blown away by my all or nothing recognition and defense of objective truths that they forget I have a heart. I have never condemned any of my friends who had abortions even in spite of my attempts to dissuade them (which they expected, knowing me). I've only shown them love and been there for them once the real suffering began in earnest.

Anyway ... thanks for the lead.

[Romulus]

Thanks for your reply.

Keep in mind that Judaism has a strong history of tolerance - and practices the ethic of deploring the sin while having compassion for the sinner.

This is a noble ethic, so long as tolerance does not degenerate into rationalisation. Tolerance to me suggests that sinners can repent and seek reconciliation, and as such is cherished by all Christians, who believe that the whole point of Christ's mission was/is to reconcile man to God.

I came across an excellent discussion by Rabbi Roller (reproduced below), at Ask the Rabbi. The link is HERE

Thanks; here's a link for you, to Jews for Life. You might take a look at Rabbi Daniel Lapin's article (linked in the left-hand sidebar), entitled "Is Judaism A Pro-Life Religion?"

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5

According to the Psalmist, sinfulness, plainly a moral condition, can exist from the moment of conception. To me this seems a powerful suggestion that one is fully human from this first moment.

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." - -Exodus 21:22-25, King James Version.

About this, Rabbi Lapin observes: "One problem with this interpretation [that the loss of fetal life did not require the death penalty, therefore,the fetus is not considered a human being]is that fetal death is occurring as the result of an accident, not an abortion. No choice was involved here. Anyone familiar with the Jewish Scriptures knows that the penalty for murder is death, while the penalty for manslaughter is not (See Exodus 21:12-14 - I recommend the Stone edition of the Torah which includes the Rabbinic writings. There are extensive commentaries on these verses)."

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you: I ordered you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5).

Here, says Lapin, is evidence of "a preordained destiny that G-d intended for the prophet, crafted even before his birth."

Lapin gores on: "The entire passage from Psalm 139:13-18 provides intricate details of G-d's handiwork in human creation. "For thou hast made my reins; (kidneys, internal organs) Thou hast knit me together in my mother's womb" (v. 13). "My frame (skeleton) was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret (in the womb), And curiously wrought (embroidered, referring to the veins and arteries) in the lowest parts of the earth" (v. 15). "Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance (the embryo), And in Thy book they were all written" (v. 16). The Book referred to in Verse 16 is the "doctrine of predestination. G-d has a book in which is recorded against each person, from the emryonic stage, the number of days which would be lived." (Commentaries and verses from the Soncino Books of the Bible, London: The Soncino Press, 1985, p. 453-454.)

As for the case you offer up in the "Ask the Rabbi" extract, it seems clear to me that Lois N.'s concern is not for life, but her lifestyle. While not wishing to make light of her hardship, I'd venture to say that if this distress and inconvenience were the threshhold for "choosing" to withdraw one's cooperation in the transmission of life, the Jews would have been an extinct people long ago. Lois and Rabbi Roller, and you too should be thankful that your ancestors -- who saw more suffering and hardship than you or I can imagine -- never lent themselves to rationalising murder in the womb.

[a_witness]

Ah, that's sweet. Thanks for the story. You sound like a good friend.

[rmlew]

Do Orthodox Jews base their assessement of abortion on the Book of Deuteronomy? (The section where it the compensation due for causing a miscarriage is less than that of causing the death of person.)

That is one basis for holding that ZEF is not the same as a child. I do think that there are other parts of the Bible that do make the opposite case and I will post them later.
I am not an Orthodox Jew and I have not been properly tutored in Jewish law. I have simply taken one class on the subject.

I am aware of the honor killings that occur in some Muslim and even Arab Christian communities and am revolted by the whole idea.

[rmlew]

I wrote:

However the Tanakh is clear that from conception the Zygote is alive and has a soul held dear by God.

The zygote has no separate legal status in a single passage of the Torah (of which I am aware). It suffers the same fate as the mother in matters of punishment, although it has done no evil (Leviticus, Numbers 5, Deuteronomy 24)
1. And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
2. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot:
3. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

ACtually, none of these specifically talk about the ZEF. Instead these reffer to crimes and punishments.

You are correct that Jewish Tradition and Law as set forth in the Talmud makes no distinction for the Zygote Embryo or Fetus.
These were rulings by men on law, not the law itself.

There are places in the Bible where Abortion is attacked and the developing fetus is refered to as seperate from his or her mother.

One of the first laws given by God to all mankind prohibits not only murder but feticide:
Genesis 9:6
Whosoever sheddeth the blood of man in man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God made he man.
(This is not the KJV translation, but a literal one.)

The developing child is clearly accepted by God as an individual.
Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[luckyluke]

A single-cell zygote cannot be called a foetus by any stretch!

Think about it. Every single morning-after pill used *prevents* a real abortion from occurring.

[BlackVeil]

"aware of the honor killings ... am revolted by the whole idea." It is appalling. I was in Lourdes (France) earlier this year, doing academic research, and in the media there were reports of how a Basque man had killed his daughter. This is in the south of France, where Mediterranean norms are still strong, and it was awful how the issue was posed in terms of "how did she bring it on herself?" rather than "why did he commit such a henious crime?" Crimes of this sort still get a lenient sentence, and also a community attitude of acceptance - even by other women. (Not by everyone, obviously, and decent people in the community argued against it.) It upset me greatly, which is probably why I am still going on about it. If the woman is pregnant, then he is seen as all the more justified - instead of being the taker of two innocent lives.

[rmlew]

There was a huge scandal is Sweden a few months ago where a Swedish citizen whose parents were Turkish workers, was killed because she testified before Parliament on honor killings and other violence in the Muslim immigrant communities.

[DBtoo]

Thanks! It is interesting, and a bit alarming for several reasons.

[Coleus]

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