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To: ravinson
You prefer no change to change for the better. That's why you're a conservative and I'm a libertarian.

Political ideology aside, I do prefer change for the better.   But unlike some, I insist that it be done legally.

"Nor would I want a constitution like the Confederates' that prohibited the abolition of slavery. Talk about the despotic power! "

And what clause of the US Constitution prohibits slavery?

That's the problem with you Confederate glorifiers. To you, the state can do no wrong. If a majority of the citizens of your state wanted to secede so that they could form a state based on the ritual kidnapping and raping of nine year old girls, your analysis would support their "right of secession and self-government."

And now thanks to Lincoln I'm stuck in one that sanctioned the murder of 30 MILLION unborn children.   The states once had sovereignty, now thanks to Federalism all states must allow a Doctor to suck the brains out of a child seconds from being born.   Thanks but no thanks.

Name one [city destroyed by Sherman] .Although Sherman's tactics were hard on civilian property, few citizens were harmed by his tactics compared to other wars.

Try Randolph, Tennessee.  Jackson and Meridian, Mississippi, where Sherman boasted that "Meridian no longer exists."  The town of New Manchester, Georgia was completely destroyed - Sherman ordered the arrest and deportation of women and children, "I have ordered General Garrard to arrest for treason all owners and employees, foreign and native, and send them under guard to Marietta, whence I will send them North...... The Women can find employment in Indiana."   The town was never rebuilt.  Pardon me if I don't share in your admoration for a man targeting civilians.

The problem with rules of war which seek to protect civilians is that they only encourage dictators and their armed forces to hide behind human shields.

Yes - dictators do hide behide human shields.  Ever heard of  the "Immortal Six Hundred"?  FYI , they were Confederates.  

War is hell, but for some 4 million negroes, life itself under slavery was also hell.

If life was hell for slaves, were are the records of 4 million of them fleeing to the North after emacipation?  With the men off fighting the war, a slave revolt and mass escapes would have been common.   Again, read the Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers project for the truth about slavery.  And newspapers also give creedence to "real" truths:

"A day or two ago a letter was received at the Treasury Department from a negro man, named Henry Jones, the property of Mr. E. Cannon, of Clarksville, in this State, which is worthy of the highest commendation, and justly entitled to be imitated by those who have been hoarding their treasure during the troubles which at present afflict the country. Henry places at the disposal of the Secretary of the Treasury $465 in gold, which he hopes will be of some service to the Government. In his letter he speaks of "our glorious cause," and declares that the slaves of the South have a deeper interest in the establishment of Southern independence than the white population. He thinks if the Yankees are successful the negroes are destined to the most cruel treatment at their hands."
"Patriotism of a Colored Man", Staunton Spectator, Staunton, VA, 18 Aug 1863, p. 2, c. 3

There were plenty of Northerners who were quite sympathetic to the plight of negroes and attempted to help them, including Mary Todd Lincoln.

But the most remarkable testimony on the subject, is borne by no less a personage than the notorious Henry Ward Beecher. In a recent sermon, Mr. Beecher says the free colored people at the North "are almost without education, with but little sympathy for ignorance." "They cannot even ride in the cars of our city railroads. They are snuffed at in the house of God, or tolerated with ill-disguised disgust." The negro cannot be employed as a stone mason, bricklayer, or carpenter. "There is scarcely a carpenter's shop in New York in which a journeyman would continue to work if a black man was employed in it." There is scarcely one of the common industries of life in which he can engage. "He is crowded down, down, down, through the most menial callings to the bottom of society." "We heap upon them," says Beecher, moral obloquy more atrocious than that which the master heaps upon the slave. And notwithstanding all this, we lift ourselves up to talk to the Southern people about the rights and liberties of the human soul, and especially the African soul."
Staunton Spectator, Staunton, VA, 6 Dec 1859, p. 2, c. 1

So why did Northern states like Illinois have laws preventing blacks from immigrating into those states?

166 posted on 05/06/2002 10:06:10 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
And what clause of the US Constitution prohibits slavery?

Try the 13th Amendment.

And now thanks to Lincoln I'm stuck in one that sanctioned the murder of 30 MILLION unborn children.

It fugures that a narrow mind like yours would enlist in the "abortion is murder" army. Apparently you long for the "good old days" in the antebellum South when black women were raped to produce more slaves, which to you would apparently constitute a laudible "pro-life" agenda.

Try Randolph, Tennessee. Jackson and Meridian, Mississippi, where Sherman boasted that "Meridian no longer exists."

"According to the official website of Meridian, Sherman was wrong about Meridian no longer existing. Apparently he left four homes standing and spared the residents, who complained most bitterly about losing their slaves.

I'm not familiar with Randolph, Tennessee. Was it a "city" during the Civil War or just a hamlet? (Dittos re New Manchester, GA.) Jackson received a great deal of damage after Joe Johnston unwisely decided to dig in there and try to hold off the Union forces moving toward Vicksburg, but it could hardly be considered "destroyed".

By the way, the Confederates burned and pillaged plenty of homes and businesses when they had the rare opportunity to reach enemy territory (eg. Chambersburg, PA). The residents of Frederick, MD paid the demanded Confederate ransom to avoid the pillaging.

Yes - dictators do hide behide human shields. Ever heard of the "Immortal Six Hundred"? FYI , they were Confederates.

I was referring to civilians. You've changed the subject to union mistreatment of prisoners as retaliation for Confederate mistreatment of prisoners. The Civil War prisoner exchange program broke down when the Confederates started talking about executing all captured negro Union soldiers and their officers, and the Confederates implemented their negro soldier execution program at Fort Pillow under the command of the brutal slaveholder Nathan Bedford Forrest (who by the way once said "if we ain't fightin' fer slavery, I don't know what we're fightin' fer.")

If life was hell for slaves, were [sic] are the records of 4 million of them fleeing to the North after emacipation [sic]?

So you believe that the fact that most freed negroes couldn't afford to move north after emancipation means that they enjoyed life as slaves? You're a real comedian who has apparently never heard of the Underground railroad and slave patrols.

With the men off fighting the war, a slave revolt and mass escapes would have been common.

Actually, slaveholders received exemption from the draft. They also made liberal use of whips, chains, dogs, and slave patrols to discourage "servile insurrection". Also, most negroes were smart enough to figure out that their freedom was being won by Union forces.

In his letter he speaks of "our glorious cause," and declares that the slaves of the South have a deeper interest in the establishment of Southern independence than the white population. He thinks if the Yankees are successful the negroes are destined to the most cruel treatment at their hands." "Patriotism of a Colored Man", Staunton Spectator, Staunton, VA, 18 Aug 1863

Surely a Confederate paper would only be interested in printing the gospel truth about slavery (particularly just after Gettysburg had rendered their cause so desperate)?

But the most remarkable testimony on the subject, is borne by no less a personage than the notorious Henry Ward Beecher. In a recent sermon, Mr. Beecher says the free colored people at the North "are almost without education, with but little sympathy for ignorance." "They cannot even ride in the cars of our city railroads. They are snuffed at in the house of God, or tolerated with ill-disguised disgust." The negro cannot be employed as a stone mason, bricklayer, or carpenter. "There is scarcely a carpenter's shop in New York in which a journeyman would continue to work if a black man was employed in it.

Henry Ward Beecher is talking about New York City, which was full of Democrats and the poor immigrants they cultivated with warnings about how negroes would take their jobs. That's why they had draft riots there. NYC was hardly representative of the State of New York, let alone the North, with regard to enlightened attitudes about negroes.

So why did Northern states like Illinois have laws preventing blacks from immigrating into those states?

Because many lower North states like Illinois were still dominated by Democrats well into the 1860's, and even many Republicans had understandable fears about their communities being overrun with desperate negro refugees. Nevertheless, 3/5 of the Illinois Republicans voted against the 1862 exclusion law. (See Battle Cry, p.507.)

By the way, do you support open borders?

170 posted on 05/06/2002 5:13:37 PM PDT by ravinson
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