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To: Non-Sequitur
Treated as plural? How do you figure? Did you read the part where it referred to the treaty as being between the two countries? And if Great Britian did consider the 13 colonies as sovereign and independent states then why didn't they insist on a treaty with each? You are the one grasping at straws here.

Your post says, in pertinant part, "and the said United States on their part". This is clearly plural. You also choose to ignore the plain language of Article I.

Furthermore, the Declaration of Indepedence is "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." Clearly indicating that the states veiwed themselves as distinct.

It also says, "That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.

Again, independent states. Not part of the United States, but independent states."

From the Articles of Confederation: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."

This clearly indicates that your theory that the states were never soveriegn, independent entities just doesn't hold water.

Historically, your claim is completely inaccurate. It is time to review your preconceived notions in light of solid historical evidence. When you do, I beleive you will have no choice but to concede that the Southern states had a right to leave the union.

104 posted on 05/02/2002 10:57:49 AM PDT by Rule of Law
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To: Rule of Law
From the Articles of Confederation: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."

This clearly indicates that your theory that the states were never soveriegn, independent entities just doesn't hold water.

The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court saw it differently.

The revolution, or rather the Declaration of Independence, found the people already united for general purposes, and at the same time, providing for their more domestic concerns by state conventions, and other temporary arrangements. From the crown of Great Britain, the sovereignty of their country passed to the people of it; and it was then not an uncommon opinion, that the unappropriated lands, which belonged to that crown, passed, not to the people of the colony or states within whose limits they were situated, bt to the whole people; on whatever principles this opinion rested, it did not give way to the other, and thirteen sovereignties were considered as emerged from the principles of the revolution, combined with local convenience and considerations; the people nevertheless continued to consider themselves, in a national point of view, as one people; and they continued without interruption to manage their national concerns accordingly; afterwards, in the hurry of the war, and in the warmth of mutual confidence, they made a confederation of the States, the basis of a general Government. Experience disappointed the expectations they had formed from it; and then the people, in their collective and national capacity, established the present Constitution. It is remarkable that in establishing it, the people exercised their own rights and their own proper sovereignty, and conscious of the plenitude of it, they declared with becoming dignity, "We the people of the United States," 'do ordain and establish this Constitution." Here we see the people acting as the sovereigns of the whole country.; and in the language of sovereignty, establishing a Constitution by which it was their will, that the state governments should be bound, and to which the State Constitutions should be made to conform. Every State Constitution is a compact made by and between the citizens of a state to govern themeselves in a certain manner; and the Constitution of the United States is liekwise a compact made by the people of the United States to govern themselves as to general objects, in a certain manner. By this great compact however, many prerogatives were transferred to the national Government, such as those of making war and peace, contracting alliances, coining money, etc."

--Chief Justice John Jay, 1793

Walt

105 posted on 05/02/2002 11:09:21 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Rule of Law
So where does the Treaty of Paris overrule the Articles of Confederation or the Constitution of the United States. It could refer to them as whatever they want, unless the Constitution or the Articles agree then the Treaty is meaningless.
107 posted on 05/02/2002 4:47:17 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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