Pius XII Blamed, Praised at Major Conference

Inside the Vatican News ^ | April 19 2002 | William Doino

[LarryLied]

Read the posting guidelines. This gets old.

[Angelique]

It is so difficult to understand the coptic Catholicism let alone this praise for such disgusting behavior by our priests. There can be no praise for such.

[Romulus]

Thanks very much for a valuable contribution to this thread. The fact that Carroll approaches anti-Catholicism as personal therapy is particularly interesting, especially in the way his fixation on a supposededly comprehensive Catholic ethic of concealment alights on the current trahison des clercs.

[neocon]

a supposededly comprehensive Catholic ethic of concealment

What I have never seen mentioned in this regard is the history of the separation of Church and State. It was understood in the past that the Church needed to be protected by incursions from the State, and so separate Ecclesial and secular court systems were set up, the former being governed by Canon Law. If memory serves, all of that unpleasantness between Henry II and Thomas à Becket arose from a dispute over whether clerics could be subjected to secular penalties. (Henry, of course, had Becket murdered in his own cathedral, and was later subjected to a public flogging by Church authorities in punishment.)

Naturally, this system could be sustained only so long as the Ecclesial courts were seen to be carrying out their duties equitably, and not yielding to the temptation of leniency towards their own. I find it rather odd that some are proposing that the Holy Orthodox Church has it right in this regard, with her emphasis on sacerdotal collegiality. The failure of the Catholic Church in dealing with the current crisis suggests instead a greater need for strict hierachical accountability; the hierarchy having failed to exercise the disciplinary power properly within its scope. Greater collegiality could have only aggravated the present situation.

[neocon]

I will be back before too long to deal with the specifics

Perhaps I may be of some assistance with the following outline. You could begin with the following quotations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." [Lumen Gentium 16]

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, [cf. Nostra aetate 4] "the first to hear the Word of God." [Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", [Rom 9:4-5] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." [Rom 11:29]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

In addition, there is this passage from Mit brennender Sorge:

16. Whoever wishes to see banished from church and school the Biblical history and the wise doctrines of the Old Testament, blasphemes the name of God, blasphemes the Almighty's plan of salvation, and makes limited and narrow human thought the judge of God's designs over the history of the world: he denies his faith in the true Christ, such as He appeared in the flesh, the Christ who took His human nature from a people that was to crucify Him; and he understands nothing of that universal tragedy of the Son of God who to His torturer's sacrilege opposed the divine and priestly sacrifice of His redeeming death, and made the new alliance the goal of the old alliance, its realization and its crown.

Finally, you might wish to discuss the absurdity of the notion that human actions, such as the production of a Red Heifer, or, even, the establishment of the modern state of Israel, could somehow "force God's hand," as it were, and cause Him bring about the End of the Age. The argument usually given in support of this notion relies on a Calvinist understanding of predestination. Philosophically, then, the concept denies causality. You may wish to use this as an example of defective theology actually resulting in harmful temporal as well as spiritual consequences, since it is presently being put forth as a justification for lighting the fuse on the powder keg which is the Holy Land. There is, of course, no guarantee that the looming violence will in fact be the Armageddon of Revelation and not just an enormous human tragedy, but the perpetrators will deny culpability, since they deny as well that they possess free will.

[ELS]

Thanks for posting this. I received the e-mail newsletter from Inside the Vatican today. I was glad to see that the conference was more balanced than AP's coverage of it was.

[berned]

the absurdity of the notion that human actions, such as the production of a Red Heifer, or, even, the establishment of the modern state of Israel, could somehow "force God's hand," as it were, and cause Him bring about the End of the Age.

You have everything exactly backwards. God is Sovereign over all. Bible believing Christians believe that GOD brought about the creation of the modern State of Israel (over the objections of mere men) in order to fulfill the prophesies of Revelation -- not the other way around, as you seem to be stating it.

God prophesied that Israel would go into slavery in Egypt, and then be brought out to a Promised Land. The Egyptians never wanted to give up their slaves, but what God promised, He brought about, regardless of what any Egyptian "Spiritual Leader" wanted, or thought was prudent. Same with the Babylonian captivity. God brought it about, but prophsied He would end it and bring the Jews back to their land, and He did.

God created the modern Israeli state. Not because men wanted it or purposed it, but because He prophesied in Revelation that in the end times Israel would be back in the land, and so they are. God's plan of Redemption unfolds regardless of the folly of mere men. What He wants to happen, happens.

[HockeyPop]

Today Christians and Jews decry the outrageous passages in the Koran. It would do well for us to consider the New Testament, it's connection to anti semitism and it's consequences.

"The children of the kingdom (referring to the Jews) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 8.12)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt 23.37,38)

"That upon you (Jews) may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Barachias..." (Matt 23.35)

"Then answered all the people and said, his blood be on us, and on our children" (Matt 27.25).

"But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten" (Mark 13.9)

"He that believeth not shall be damed" (Mark 16.16)

"Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8.43-47)

"Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers" (Acts 7.51-53)

"It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you (Jews): but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13.45-51)

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake ... wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth". (Titus 1.10-14).

"The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost". (i Thess 2..14-16)

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father" (1 John 2.22,23)

These vicious and treacherous New Testament teachings, have given the impression that the Jews in the time of Jesus were degenerate and cruel and that they are a deicide race. They have been spread by the church for the last two millennia, and have not been rooted out of Christian thinking to the present day. Even those Christian lovers of Israel, only love the Jews in order to save them from the punishment awaiting them for not having accepted Jesus.

Remember, many learn all this in their Sunday school classes at young, impressionable ages [5-10 years old] and grow up with it. How can a Christian really like Jews when the anti-Jewish teachings of the Christian Bible are his or her first teachings at such an impressionable young age?

[d4now]

How can a Christian really like Jews when the anti-Jewish teachings of the Christian Bible are his or her first teachings at such an impressionable young age?

I was never taught those things in Sunday School.
And how can you be sure a Christian like me "really" likes you?
I dunno HockeyPop...up until this last post I thought you were a Mensch.

[RobbyS]

I am prepared to support Israel on the simple grounds that they have as much right as the Arabs to have their own country, but God twice took away the Promised Land. As to the establishment of a Jewish state, the potential for violence was already clear by the 1930s, because the Arabs were already wild. If Rommel had gotten to Cairo, the whole of Araby would have united behind Hitler in the blink of an eye.

[HockeyPop]

Let me say that my post above does not advocate collective guilt. That would be like saying white America owes black America reparations for the sins of some who engaged in the slave trade. Just as white Christian soldiers died in our Civil War, so too did they die in North Africa, Normandy and the Ardennes in order to remove nazism from the face of the earth. In fact, there are passages in the Talmud which could be interpreted as anti gentile. There is enough shame and guilt to go around. What makes the Jews plight throughout history so wrought with horror is the fact that they, as a minority, have always been at the mercy of whichever host culture and country they have lived.

Is it any wonder that today Israeli men in their forties have been putting down their tools, picking up their rifles and kissing their wives and kids good bye as they go off to fight for their existence? We owe them our support because theirs rests on a far higher moral ground.

[d4now]

Even those Christian lovers of Israel, only love the Jews in order to save them from the punishment awaiting them for not having accepted Jesus. Also, this sentence is confusing.

If you meant I only love Israel because it a "Christian" thing to do - you're wrong. I love Israel for several reasons. Good, hardworking people who are fighting for their lives against a terrorism I can not fathom - just for starters.

[HockeyPop]

In describing one of the dilemmas the US and English armies faced in WWII, Eisenhower had this to say:

"One complication in the Arab tangle was the age old antagonism existing between the Arab and the Jew. Since the former outnumbered the latter by some forty to one in North Africa, it had become local policy to placate the Arab at the expense of the Jew; repressive laws in the past became even more so and the Arab population regarded any suggestion for amelioration of such laws as the beginning of an effort to establish a Jewish government. Remembering that for years the uneducated population had been subjected to intensive Nazi propoganda calculated to fan these prejudices, it is easy to understand that the situation called for more caution and evolution than it did for precipitate action and possible revolution." Dwight D. Eisenhower, "CRUSADE IN EUROPE", Doubleday, pg 128 (1949)

No wonder why 700,000 Jews left Arab countries for Israel. Unfortunately, so did an equal number of Arabs who later began calling themselves "Palestinians".

[HockeyPop]

You are correct. I know of no Christians my age or younger who learned of these passages or were taught to hate Jews. My wife is a Christian as is one of my brother in laws. I have rarely ever encountered Americans of the Christian faith who hate Jews other than perhaps expressing an uneasiness around them. That has been my personal experience and this conviction has reinforced itself as I've aged.

BTW, you are a mensch.

[TopQuark]

No wonder why 700,000 Jews left Arab countries for Israel. Incidentally, I wonder why is it tha these Jews do not demand a separate state, why have they been absorbed by Israel, for which it was a huge burden given its tiny size. In contrast, the same number of "Palestinians" have not been absorbed into the vast see of the Arab world; today they demand a separate country. Perhaps, it is not about self-determination at all: in 1979s, Arafat tried to take over Jordan. He failed, so now he found another potential victim --- Israel.

He acts like a regular mugger: if one subject puts up resistence, he goes to another, until he finds someone who hand over the wallet. First Jordan, then Lebanon, now Israel. The mugging continues. Chicago, San Fransisco and London soon to come.

[RobbyS]

Christianity began as a Jewish sect, and during the first generations, there was fighting between Jews who followed Jesus and those who hated him and his followers. By the turn of the century, Christianity and Judaism had become separate groups, with most Christians now being non-Jewish. Jewish scholarship became anti-christian, both in the sense of minimizing the messianic Scriptures and in opposition to Christian teachings. It became impossible to be both a Jew and a Christian. The hostility between Greeks and Jews, which went back before Christ, did not abate as the Christians drew recruits from among the Greeks. But in the Roman Empire, the Jews had the stronger position legally, since Rome made peace with them after the failure of the Bar Kochka revolt, whereas the Christians remained an outloaw sect, subject to prosecution The Jews were always glad to stir up trouble for the Christians.By the 4th Century Christians outnumbered the Jews, although probably not by much. When Christibaity wss recognized by Constantine, the tables were turned, and the Christians now used political pressure against the Jews. The hatred between the two that was generated during four hundred years unfortunately set the tone for the future. The Jews were persecuted simply because they had become weaker.

[HockeyPop]

While I would agree with you, I think that your statement Jewish scholarship became anti-christian, both in the sense of minimizing the messianic Scriptures and in opposition to Christian teachingsignores the fact that Judaism did not have to set itself apart from early Christian teachings while Christianity needed to actively do so. Judaism was never a proselytizing faith.

[d4now]

Thank you for clearing that up.

Peace be with you HockeyPop.

And may G_d be in Bethlehem.

[RobbyS]

One thing that is not talked about is the in-migration of Arabs into the British mandate as the country prospered under the local version of the British Raj, due largely to Jewish money and energy. The Colonial office, I gather, was anti-Jewish, but they were talented administrators, and their rule facilitated the development of the area. So the Arabs drifted in.