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"Exhibit A: Islamic countries. Is the price of relinquishing all decision making to males: honor killings, forced marriages, girls and women bartered and sold into sexual indenturing, bartered and sold to pay debts sold, or sold into prostitution to pay debts? If so, who would fault women for deciding that there must be something better than the costs of this type of "protection" for the less fortunate of their members? "

Your "Exhibit A" and the examples that follow are all from societies that have eschewed Western Civilization and the Judeo-Christian concept of human dignity. Yet feminist radicals don't seem to congregate outside of mosques and embassies with their signs and soap boxes... they infiltrate the churches, synagogues and social agencies instituted to provide them with the abilities and the rights to form just such protests. In this light, the radical feminist deconstructors are doing more to take America in the direction of the Taliban than vice versa.

It might also interest you to know that, in some of these Middle Eastern hell holes that you mention, the children - including the boys - are socialized by their mothers moreso than their fathers, who may not even meet them until they are almost teenagers. This would make room for the argument that these societies are more matriarchal than feminists would have us believe. Also, parallels could be made between children being raised sans paternal influence in communal "harems" and children being raised sans paternal influence in daycare facilities and public schools. Looking at the results of 50 years of increasing fatherlessness and feminizing of boys, the United States may yet produce an Osama bin Laden of its own.

Your "Exhibit A" and the examples that follow are all from societies that have eschewed Western Civilization and the Judeo-Christian concept of human dignity. _____ Nonsense. The Judeo-Christian tradition is replete with abasement of human dignity, duplicity and outright hypocrisy. I posted on another thread how nuns and women in the Catholic Church in Africa are being victimized by the priests. This is not because men are evil it is a direct result of abosolute power resting with an elite, which history has shown us is far from a garantee of a "human dignity" for those not part of the power elite framework.

Women are better off in the larger picture looking after their own interests than sitting around waiting for someone else to look after their interest for them. Tried that for 5,000 years, it for the most part didn't work. Time to try something different.

This is not the fault of men it is human nature. The old saying Power currupts and abosolute power corrupts absolutely. Our entire country is founded on this principle. That is why we have 3 branches of government. Our founders knew that a small elite ruling group (by human nature) cannot be counted on (in the final analysis) to look out for anyone's best interest but their own. I happen to agree wtih them. People who give their proxy over to others and hope for the best are in grave peril. Yet feminist radicals don't seem to congregate outside of mosques and embassies with their signs and soap boxes... they infiltrate the churches, synagogues and social agencies instituted to provide them with the abilities and the rights to form just such protests. _____ I'm unclear what you're referring to. In the USA women are full citizens. As such they have (under the First Ammendment)the right to free speech and the right to petition the government for redress of greivances. There is not pre-requisite in our Bill of Rights that people have to be "right" in order to speak. Perhaps the criticism of "feminists" is more a criticism of our system of government? Or perhaps a criticism of allowing everyone citizenship?

In this light, the radical feminist deconstructors are doing more to take America in the direction of the Taliban than vice versa. _____ Actually, they are not. They are doing exactly what every other group does by working within our established system to affect change. You may not like what they work towards, I don't like much of it either. But you are not asked to like it. You are asked to support our system and make it fair and accessible to everyone. The alternative is to revert to a dictorship and disallow those you don't like to participate in shaping policies and laws. Which one is more like the Taliban?

It might also interest you to know that, in some of these Middle Eastern hell holes that you mention, the children - including the boys - are socialized by their mothers moreso than their fathers, who may not even meet them until they are almost teenagers._____ This may or may not be true. In many others it has been reported that boys are taken at an early age and live collectively only with boys/men in madrasas which indoctrinate them with hate and violence (in particular hatred and/or suspicion of women).

This would make room for the argument that these societies are more matriarchal than feminists would have us believe. ____ Well, I've traveled extensively in 4 and lived in one Islamic society and I do not believe that. I'm no expert but that was NOT my experience. These societies are very patriarchal which their forms of government mirror. Also, parallels could be made between children being raised sans paternal influence in communal "harems" and children being raised sans paternal influence in daycare facilities and public schools. Looking at the results of 50 years of increasing fatherlessness and feminizing of boys, the United States may yet produce an Osama bin Laden of its own. ____ Yadda yadda. So where are the men? Where are the fathers? Where are the male teachers? What you are doing is blaming the people who are present and accounted for for the fact that the people who are a.w.o.l. This is akin to a preacher in church complaining to the people who are there about all the people who don't go to church. Useless. IF men being a.w.o.l. from participating with raising/teaching our children is a problem in society (and I agree with you that it is) then why don't men do something about it?

Also, all this finger pointing and passing the buck and blaming the other guy .... is a bad example for our children. It is not the way to teach personal responsibility to sit around whining and blaming others. Paraphrasing our illustrious President's outlook: You are either a part of the problem or part of the solution. There are no nuetral bystanders.