[Sabertooth]

You're basically saying that, whenever science finds or implies a lack of design, it has strayed into theology. It's going to do that a lot.

No, I'm saying that finding or implying design or the lack of it is subjective, and not scientific. To me, math, physics, chemistry, biology, and even evolution look like design. To another, they might not. But neither of us is one up on the other. That's why science should remain agnostic.

A converse to your statement above imight be: wherever science doesn't find or imply God, we must presume random or nature. There's no need, and the presumption is actually irrelevant to science.

Is a sincere scientist going to accept "random did it" or "nature did it," any more than he would "God did it?" If he sets all three aside, the inquiry proceeds anyway.

What's the downside to an agnostic science?

[VadeRetro]

A converse to your statement above imight be: wherever science doesn't find or imply God, we must presume random or nature. There's no need, and the presumption is actually irrelevant to science.

"Random" is often the wrong word. When you find a cause and it isn't magic--so far, it's never been magic--"nature" is the right word.

I'm not pushing any theological or even philosophical consequences of evolution, an old earth, the Big Bang, whatever. I merely insist that they have earned a place in science and science class. I'm not invading somebody's church with pictures of Archaeopteryx and yelling "Repent, superstitious idolators!" The converse relationship does not apply.

[Quila]

Is a sincere scientist going to accept "random did it" or "nature did it,"

Remember, whenever you read anything on the subject about randomness, just put the word "apparently" before it and you should be okay. After all, science can only operate on what we see and detect ("appears" to us), and we wouldn't know the difference between something supernaturally structured to appear random and something truly random, so the addition can be safely assumed in any discussion. Can we let the God of Random retire now? I'm an atheist, so one fewer gods in the world means nothing to me.