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Prosecutors: Westerfield's Rights Weren't Violated (Are taxpayers picking up accused killers tab?)
KSDN San Diego NBC TV ^ | April 12, 2002 | NBC

Posted on 04/12/2002 11:17:08 PM PDT by FresnoDA

Prosecutors: Westerfield's Rights Weren't Violated

Documents: Motorhome May Have Transported Victim

 

POSTED: 5:30 p.m. PDT April 11, 2002
UPDATED: 10:14 a.m. PDT April 12, 2002
SAN DIEGO -- A police dog was agitated near a garage and "hit" on something upstairs during a search of David Westerfield's home after Danielle van Dam was reported missing, according to court documents filed Thursday.
FeedRoom
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Rights Violation?
'Rights Weren't Violated'
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Detectives, who also believe Westerfield's motorhome may have been used to transport the victim, said search dogs alerted on a storage area on the exterior of the vehicle, near the main entrance on the passenger side, the documents state.

 David Westerfield

Prosecutors filed their response to a defense motion claiming detectives failed to honor Westerfield's request for an attorney and used improper methods to question him in the days after the 7-year-old's disappearance.

  Westerfield's attorneys argued in a motion filed with Superior Court Judge William Mudd last week that they should be able to review the personnel files of 13 officers involved in the case to see if there was any history of past misconduct.

But prosecutors said Mudd need only review the personnel records of detectives Mike Ott and Mark Keyser for the names and telephone numbers of any witnesses with information relevant to complaints received during the last five years about their credibility, or complaints about the detectives giving suspects their Miranda rights.

Ott and Keyser interviewed Westerfield on Feb. 4, two days after the girl disappeared. They also drove with the defendant on the exact 600-mile route he said he traveled the weekend Danielle van Dam turned up missing. A hearing on the "Pitchess" motion is set for April 18.

Mudd ruled Tuesday that future motions in the Westerfield case will be filed under seal until hearings scheduled for May 6. The judge also ruled there would be no TV coverage of the pretrial hearings in the case. Trial is set to begin May 17.

Other possible pretrial motions might include a defense request to move Westerfield's trial away from San Diego County, and a prosecution motion to limit inquiries into the supposed "swinging" lifestyle of the victim's parents.

Westerfield, 50, lived two doors down from the victim. He is charged with kidnapping, murder, possession of child pornography in connection with the girl's death.

He also faces a special circumstance allegation of murder during a kidnapping, which could lead to the death penalty if he is convicted. Prosecutors will announce later whether they intend to seek life in prison without parole or capital punishment should Westerfield be found guilty.

Brenda and Damon van Dam discovered their daughter missing from her upstairs bed the morning of Feb. 2. Searchers found her partially decomposed body just off an East County road on Feb. 27. In the interim, the case drew nationwide attention.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: vandam; westerfield
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Are taxpayers picking up Westerfield's tab?

Court rules 'John Doe' qualifies for county-paid legal defense

By Alex Roth
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

April 12, 2002


File photo
David Westerfield, charged with killing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam, eyes the lead attorney of his defense team, Steven Feldman, at his preliminary hearing.
Taxpayers may be footing David Westerfield's legal bills – without knowing it.

In an opinion shrouded in unusual secrecy, a San Diego appellate court ruled this week that a criminal defendant identified only as "John Doe" is broke and qualifies for a taxpayer-financed legal defense.

The 4th District Court of Appeal said John Doe would be allowed to keep the attorneys he hired. The defense team will be compensated by the public at a rate determined by the trial court.

The appeals court took great pains to conceal John Doe's identity, declaring he is "entitled to confidentiality." It also declined to identify what charges he faces or to say who his trial attorneys are. The Superior Court case number on the file has been X-ed out.

It's not unusual for a criminal defendant to run out of money and have the public pay the legal bills. But several First Amendment experts said they have never seen a court take such steps to conceal the information.

Such secrecy has been common in the case of Westerfield, 50, the Sabre Springs man charged with abducting and killing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam, who lived two doors away.

The murder case has drawn extensive national news coverage, and the crush of media attention has prompted extraordinary judicial secrecy. Judges in the case have sealed documents that usually are considered public. Gag orders were issued prohibiting attorneys and witnesses from talking to the media.

All of this makes it nearly impossible to confirm that Westerfield is John Doe. But there are clues:

 The county was notified recently that "the issue of indigency" was being raised in the case of Westerfield, a self-employed engineer. Westerfield had requested to keep his attorneys "for the sake of continuity," said Glen Callaway, a staff officer for Walt Ekard, the county's chief administrative officer.

Money to pay the legal costs of indigent criminal defendants comes from the county government budget. Callaway said he had heard the issue was being appealed to the 4th District Court.

 The 4th District's opinion overturns a decision by Superior Court Judge Peter Deddeh, who declared John Doe indigent but ruled the defendant couldn't keep his private attorneys. Deddeh was the judge of record in the Westerfield case at the time.

 The appellate court ruling refers to other sealed pleadings in the John Doe case. Numerous pleadings in the Westerfield case have been sealed because of concern about media coverage.

 A little more than a week before Deddeh's March 5 ruling declaring John Doe indigent, Westerfield deeded his house to his high-profile criminal defense attorneys, Steven Feldman and Robert Boyce. The Sabre Springs house is now on the market for $484,900.

Los Angeles attorney Kelli Sager, who specializes in media and First Amendment law, said she doesn't see any legal justification for the court's decision to keep John Doe's identity confidential.

"It's the public's money, so the fact that public money is used shouldn't be kept secret," Sager said.

San Diego County Public Defender Steve Carroll said courts often seal information about how much public money is spent, and the details of how it's spent, to protect a defendant's trial strategy.

But Carroll said he has never heard of a court keeping secret the fact that a defendant has been declared eligible for public money. He called the 4th District's ruling "curious."

Westerfield's legal team didn't return a phone call seeking comment. A spokeswoman for the District Attorney's Office also declined comment, citing the gag order.

The 4th District's ruling in the John Doe case was handed down Wednesday.

"There is no dispute that Doe is indigent and entitled to the appointment of an attorney at public expense," Justice Judith Haller wrote in an opinion joined by Justices Richard Huffman and Alex McDonald.

Overruling Deddeh, the justices said John Doe should be allowed to keep his current attorneys, citing "well-settled" law that a defendant should have the attorney of his choice in such cases, especially when that preference is based on "trust and confidence developed over a substantial period of time."

If Westerfield is John Doe, and he has been ruled eligible for public funds, there are reasons why his attorneys wouldn't want the public to know, some criminal defense lawyers said yesterday.

Those lawyers speculated that Westerfield's attorneys might be concerned about negative public reaction, making it harder for them to pick an unbiased jury.

Legal experts said courts routinely allow private attorneys to remain on a case at public expense after a defendant runs out of money, although the courts set various guidelines regarding how much the attorneys can charge.

Courts don't like to remove a defense attorney from a case after the attorney is already familiar with the facts and has established a rapport with his client.

The cost of mounting a defense in a complicated homicide case could reach well into six figures, said San Diego criminal defense lawyer David Bartick.

Prosecutors in the Westerfield case haven't decided whether they will seek the death penalty against Westerfield, who they believe kidnapped Danielle for the purpose of sexually assaulting her.

In capital cases, the cost of the defense can skyrocket.

The next hearing in the Westerfield case is scheduled for Thursday, when Superior Court Judge William Mudd will hear arguments on whether to give Westerfield's attorneys access to police personnel files. The trial is scheduled to begin May 17.

1 posted on 04/12/2002 11:17:08 PM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: MizSterious;spectre;Amore;Travis McGee;BunnySlippers;Doughtyone;Hillary's Lovely Legs;Snow Bunny...
Westerfield case update...PING...) ) )
2 posted on 04/12/2002 11:18:28 PM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: MizSterious

DA files response in Westerfield case

KIMBERLY EPLER
Staff Writer

SAN DIEGO ---- Police dogs searching for signs of missing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam became agitated in David Westerfield's garage and alerted officers to something in the upstairs of his house and a storage area on his motor home, according to court papers filed Thursday.

The papers, which include police investigation reports, were part of the district attorney's response to defense claims that Westerfield's rights were repeatedly violated by police in the days after the Sabre Springs second-grader was reported missing Feb. 2.

Last week, Westerfield's defense attorney, Robert Boyce, filed a motion asking Judge William Mudd to look at the personnel files of 13 police investigators involved in the case.

The district attorney's office said in its response that there was no basis for reviewing the files of 11 police investigators, but did not object to Mudd reviewing the files of two detectives who spent 14 hours with Westerfield for any history of misconduct or complaints.

Westerfield, 50, is scheduled to stand trial May 17 on charges he kidnapped Danielle from her second-story bedroom and murdered her. If convicted he could face the death penalty.

All parties in the case are under a court order not to discuss it.

Danielle was last seen on Feb. 1 when her father tucked her into bed. Her parents discovered she was gone when they went to wake her up the next morning. A massive search for Danielle ensued, with thousands of volunteers scouring local canyons and deserts.

In Danielle's neighborhood, police conducted a house-to-house search. Westerfield was gone that weekend and his home was one of the last searched. He lived two doors from the van Dams.

When Westerfield returned home Feb. 4 he "readily spoke with detectives, and signed consent forms allowing the officers to search his house, his SUV, and his motor home parked some miles away," according to court papers.

He also consented to search dogs going through his home, the papers state.

One of the investigator's reports says a search dog named Hopi became agitated in the garage and was alerted to something in the attic or ventilation system while searching Westerfield's second floor. Detectives then checked the attic.

While initial searches of Westerfield's property failed to lead police to Danielle, the twice-divorced father of two was quickly becoming the focus of the investigation and was questioned several times by police.

Two days after Danielle disappeared, Westerfield denied being involved in her disappearance, but a police interrogation specialist was "convinced he was deceptive when he stated he was not in any way responsible for Danielle's disappearance," court papers state.

Detectives also suspected Westerfield might have used his motor home to move Danielle.

Her nude and decomposing body, still wearing the plastic necklace seen in her missing posters, was found under an oak tree in a rural area east of El Cajon nearly four weeks after she disappeared.

No cause of death has been released.

In his motion last week, defense attorney Boyce asked for information about any complaints of misconduct. He said detectives ignored Westerfield's repeated requests for an attorney and detained Westerfield against his will.

Boyce also attacked the credibility of some police investigators, saying they "falsified and misrepresented facts of the case and the circumstances of Westerfield's detention and questioning."

Private attorneys said Westerfield's defense team is laying the groundwork to suppress evidence at the heart of the prosecution's case.

The district attorney's office is not objecting to a review of the two police detectives who spent 14 hours with Westerfield on Feb. 5. During that time, Westerfield sat in the front seat of an unmarked car as he and the two detectives retraced his 600-mile journey the weekend Danielle disappeared, court papers state.

Later, the two detectives put Westerfield up in a Mission Valley motel because his home was still being searched.

One of the issues to be resolved is whether Westerfield was in police custody during any of the questioning sessions. Being in custody is different from being under arrest. The standard is whether a reasonable person would feel free to leave. If a person is in custody, all questioning is supposed to stop when a person asks for an attorney.

A hearing on whether a judge will review some, all or none of the investigators' files and provide any relevant information to the defense is set for Thursday. Earlier this week, Mudd ruled all future motions would be filed under seal until a series of pretrial hearings are held in early May. He also banned all live television and radio coverage of the hearings.

 

Contact staff writer Kimberly Epler at (760) 739-6644 or kepler@nctimes.com.

4/12/02

3 posted on 04/12/2002 11:20:33 PM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: Jaded

Lie-Detector Specialist: Westerfield 'Deceptive'

Tests Inadmissible In Court

Posted: 12:39 p.m. PDT April 12, 2002
Updated: 12:50 p.m. PDT April 12, 2002
SAN DIEGO -- A lie-detector specialist who interviewed a man accused of kidnapping and murdering 7-year-old Danielle van Dam was convinced that the defendant was "deceptive," court documents show.
The interview occurred two days after the girl was reported missing from her home. After an exhaustive search involving hundreds of volunteers, Danielle's body was found along a rural road more than three weeks later.

Paul Redden, who conducted the interview, was "convinced the defendant was deceptive when he stated he was not in any way responsible for Danielle's disappearance," according to court documents filed Thursday by prosecutors.

It was unclear whether a polygraph test was actually administered because many of the key details in the documents have been blacked out.

David Westerfield, 50, who lives near the van Dam family, has pleaded innocent to kidnapping, murder and child-pornography charges. His trial is scheduled for May 17.

Court documents show that Westerfield signed a consent form before he was interviewed and the conversation was recorded. Within hours of the interview, police obtained a warrant to search Westerfield's home more thoroughly than they had in a prior visit.

Police have said that DNA evidence links Westerfield to the crime, but have not publicly confirmed that he underwent a lie-detector test. Those tests are not admissible in court, but police often use them to pressure or rule out suspects.


4 posted on 04/12/2002 11:23:40 PM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: Spectre

Van Dam Suspect Raised Suspicions Early in Case

By TONY PERRY
AUSTRALIAN TIMES STAFF WRITER

April 12 2002

SAN DIEGO -- Documents filed Thursday in the case against David Westerfield reveal that a police lie-detector specialist interviewed him two days after 7-year-old Danielle van Dam disappeared and concluded he was lying when he denied being involved.

Paul Redden, who has administered polygraph tests for two decades, was "convinced the defendant was deceptive when he stated he was not in any way responsible for Danielle's disappearance," according to the documents.

Police have said DNA evidence links Westerfield to the crime but have declined to say publicly whether he was given a lie-detector test. Key words and sections in the documents filed by prosecutors are blacked out, so that it is impossible to tell conclusively from the papers whether Westerfield took a polygraph test.

But they also indicate he signed a consent form before his interview with Redden and that the interview was tape-recorded, both standard procedures during polygraph tests but not during routine police interviews.

Though lie-detector tests are not admissible in court, police often use them to pressure or rule out suspects. Danielle van Dam's mother and father took and passed lie-detector tests, police have said.

First interviewed on Feb. 4, Westerfield, 50, a self-employed engineer and a neighbor of the Van Dams, was arrested Feb. 22. Danielle's nude body was found in a rural area of the county Feb. 27. Westerfield is charged with kidnapping and murder.

Within hours of Redden's interview, police got a warrant to search Westerfield's home more thoroughly than they had in a preliminary search.

Asked to show police where he had spent the two days after Danielle disappeared, Westerfield took them on a 14-hour journey from his home in San Diego to a desert camping area of Imperial County and to a parking lot at Silver Strand beach near Coronado.

The new information about the Redden interview came in documents filed by prosecutors in opposition to motions filed by Westerfield's attorneys.

The defense attorneys want Superior Court Judge William Mudd to order prosecutors to disclose the personnel files of 13 officers involved in the investigation, particularly any allegations that they have been untruthful, used coercive or brutal tactics in other cases, or violated the rights of suspects during interviews.

Westerfield's attorneys claim their client was coerced by repeated questioning and false statements by police into making false but incriminating statements. Mudd has set a hearing for next month on the motions.

Westerfield lived two houses from the Van Dam family in the Sabre Springs neighborhood. His home has since been deeded to his attorneys and put up for sale
5 posted on 04/12/2002 11:26:44 PM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: FresnoDA
Fascinating John Doe indigency article, Fresno, thanks for posting it. I could maybe see him running out of money at a future date, but this early in the game --- that DOES surprise me. And it makes me wonder if it's really true or if there's some asset shifting/hiding going on. If I was a taxpayer there I'd be majorly ticked off. I guess the moral of the story is that you should hire a hot-shot lawyer, pay him for a while, then get the court to declare you indigent but claim you're attached to the attorney you already have. That way, you get a hot-shot lawyer instead of an overworked public defender, and the poor sod taxpayers are stuck with the bill. And it would seem it couldn't have been a clear-cut case of indigency or Judge Deddeh wouldn't have ruled against him.

Perhaps another reason they rushed this case to PH & to trial, was so that they could get deep enough into the case that the court wouldn't make him use the PD's office instead. Without Feldman rushing this case to trial, this case would really still have been in the very preliminary stages, and Feldman COULD have been replaced. And you know Feldman considered finances early on, as you showed us when you posted the info about the house being deeded over at a very early stage. This Feldman is certainly sharp, and he's getting plenty of help from the court system. I hope there is a public outcry about all this secrecy. Maybe a sharp reporter could do an in-depth financial investigation.

6 posted on 04/13/2002 12:20:33 AM PDT by Amore
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To: FresnoDA
Well, Fres, seems to me like Westerfield will pay for his defense untill he is broke. The question? Should the public continue to pay for Feldman? Why not?

It isn't like DW didn't use all his assets, if he did to defend himself against charges which MAY not be true, and we have to assume "innocent untill proven guilty".

Oh sure, let him have some Rookie Public Defender, who doesn't really know his ass from a hole in the ground, that should make the van Dam fans happy. It'll be a conviction for sure.

But isn't this a great country, where the van Dams can receive the best of the best, for FREE, dip into "the cookie jar", and rock and roll as usual?

Westerfield paid some big taxes in in life, I'm positive, and he should be entitled to a good Defense, not by someone who works for the indigent, not by someone the Prosecution can intimidate.

I'm off to the beautiful Ozarks for some R$R...and that crisp mountain air. Be back tomorrow.

sw

7 posted on 04/13/2002 6:30:23 AM PDT by spectre
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To: Amore

John Doe = David Westerfield???

JOHN DOE, Petitioner, v.THE SUPERIOR COURT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, Respondent.___________________________________ D039797 (San Diego County Super. Ct. No. XXXXX)

Proceedings in mandate after superior court denied motion to appoint former counsel. Peter C. Deddeh, Judge. Petition granted.

On March 5, 2002, the superior court determined that John Doe was indigent and entitled to ancillary services for his defense provided by the county. Thereafter, Doe requested the appointment of his then retained attorneys pursuant to Penal Code section 987.2. Superior court denied the request.
Doe filed this petition contesting the lower court's refusal to appoint former counsel. He labeled the petition and accompanying exhibits "sealed and confidential." Although he failed to file a motion to seal with either this court or the court below, Doe includes within the argument portion of his points and authorities a request that we seal the petition and exhibits based on, among other facts, that the pleadings below were filed under seal, the hearings below were held in camera and the majority of the exhibits to his writ petition were part of the record below. We treat Doe's request as a motion to seal under rule 12.5 of the California Rules of Court and grant the motion based on our finding that an overriding interest overcomes the right of public access and supports sealing; there is a substantial probability the overriding interest will be prejudiced if the record is not sealed; the sealing is narrowly tailored; and no less restrictive means exist to achieve the overriding interest. (See NBC Subsidiary (KNBC-TV) Inc. v. Superior Court (1999) 20 Cal.4th 1178, 1218; Champion v. Superior Court (1988) 201 Cal.App.3d 777, 785-790.)
We requested a response from superior court but have received none.
We have thoroughly reviewed the petition, the exhibits and the transcripts of the in camera hearings. There is no dispute that Doe is indigent and entitled to the appointment of an attorney at public expense under section 987.2. The law is also well-settled that when, as here, the defendant expresses a timely preference for representation by former counsel and that preference is supported by objective considerations, absent "countervailing considerations of comparable weight, it is an abuse of sound judicial discretion to deny the defendant's request to appoint the counsel of his preference." (Harris v. Superior Court (1977) 19 Cal.3d 786, 799.) When a preference based on "trust and confidence developed over a substantial period of time" is added to the equation, only one conclusion is possible - that the court appoint former counsel. (Ibid.) Because the factors set forth in Harris were met here, the court erred.
Given the temporal urgency of the action and the fact that Doe's entitlement to relief is clear, a peremptory writ in the first instance is proper. (Code of Civ. Proc., § 1088; Alexander v. Superior Court (1993) 5 Cal.4th 1218; Ng v. Superior Court (1992) 4 Cal.4th 29, 35.)

Let a writ issue directing the superior court to vacate its rulings of March 27 and 28 and enter an order appointing former counsel to represent petitioner. The original petition, exhibits and all other filings in this case shall remain under seal. This opinion is made final immediately as to this court. (Rule 24(d).)


HALLER, J.

WE CONCUR:



HUFFMAN, Acting P. J.



McDONALD, J.

 


8 posted on 04/13/2002 7:18:53 AM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: Amore
This Feldman is certainly sharp, and he's getting plenty of help from the court system. I hope there is a public outcry about all this secrecy.

Maybe a sharp reporter could do an in-depth financial investigation.

Or some websleuth Freepers!!!......LOL

FresnoDA

9 posted on 04/13/2002 7:20:18 AM PDT by FresnoDA
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To: FresnoDA
Thanks for posting the opinion, Fresno. I see they all agree he was indigent. It was just that Judge Deddeh wasn't going to let DW have Feldman at public expense. I'm with him. So, can you calculate from the house's worth what Feldman has already gotten from DW if there is already no $ left to get? I guess those patents weren't so darn lucrative after all. And I wonder what rate of payment Feldman will get? I'm sure all SD taxpayers are dying to know.
10 posted on 04/13/2002 7:37:40 AM PDT by Amore
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To: FresnoDA
Thanks for the ping. Wonder when the books are going to start rolling out?
11 posted on 04/13/2002 8:56:31 AM PDT by Jaded
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To: FresnoDA
Later read ping
12 posted on 04/13/2002 11:25:42 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: HoHoeHeaux, fivecatsandadog, wonders, mommya, Hildy, vacrn, tutstar, ThinkingMan, RnMomof7, sn
Westerfield update ping>>)))
13 posted on 04/13/2002 11:45:22 AM PDT by Valpal1
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To: Valpal1
I think this is odd. So Westerfield has signed his house over to his lawyers. So now he has nothing? What about his comments to Brenda van Dam asking her to tell her girlfriends that he was a "rich nieghbor"? Are the attorney's bills going to be that high?
14 posted on 04/13/2002 1:59:09 PM PDT by Lauratealeaf
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To: Lauratealeaf
This type of criminal defense is very expensive, you aren't just paying for the lawyer, but his team of assistants and investigators as well, many of whom will be working nearly around the clock to prepare for the trial in such a short period of time.

As for DW claiming to be "rich" to meet women..... well, he isn't the first, last or only man to have made that claim! LOL

15 posted on 04/13/2002 2:42:44 PM PDT by Valpal1
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To: Valpal1
One of the real pities of this case is that if this man IS innocent he will be a poor man when he finishes it
16 posted on 04/13/2002 4:13:54 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Having been found indigent by the courts, he apparently already is a poor man, so will be left in the same condition as he was found.

If he is acquitted, he will no doubt avail himself of the civil suit lottery at the expense of SD taxpayers. With the added opportunity of book and movie deals as the "wrongfully accused".

He is not nearly so poorly off as Danielle, dead and eaten by animals.

17 posted on 04/13/2002 5:20:53 PM PDT by Valpal1
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To: Valpal1
Gee, Val thank for sharing. I doubt if he is acquitted he will be riding a gravy train. Either way his life is ruined. Look at Barb, her business is already falling off and other than the episode with Dam she is virtually unheard from/of, but now she is seemingly a pirah .

Somebody will end up with a book deal out of all of this. Unless something drastic comes up, Bren and DvD will end up with it.

18 posted on 04/13/2002 5:29:52 PM PDT by Jaded
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To: Jaded
Gee, Val thank for sharing. I doubt if he is acquitted he will be riding a gravy train. Either way his life is ruined. Look at Barb, her business is already falling off and other than the episode with Dam she is virtually unheard from/of, but now she is seemingly a pirah .

I missed that...point me in the direction of that article or just tell me about it..

Some of our FR swingers need to realize that most folks are put off by their pimping their wives and their general hedonism. There is a "social cost " and possibly a business one

19 posted on 04/13/2002 5:53:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Jaded
I'll bet that there will be 4-6 books written about this case in the next two years, two of which will be written by reputable true crime authors, who pay neither side a cent, as they will work from public records after the trial. Others may be written (or ghost written) by side players, possibly LE investigators or defense assistants who have access to materials and may be making notes right now for later use. Then there will be the official family version and a defense version if they get an acquittal.

There will probably be 2, and possibley 3 movie deals signed. The van dam version and a westerfield version, and possibly a barbara barracuda version. Even if none of them are ever written or produced, options get bought and sold, just to control the possiblility and prevent others from purchasing story rights.

The entreprenurial spirit knows no bounds.

And I'm not a DW sympathizer. I want some real good explanations for the blood/dna and fingerprints in the MH. I don't believe for a minute an expensive toy like that was left unlocked and kids were allowed to play in it.

20 posted on 04/13/2002 6:14:27 PM PDT by Valpal1
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