Don't believe it for a second, and don't let articles like this lull you into a false sense of security. The statist agenda is still in full effect.
Posted on 04/09/2002 12:17:54 PM PDT by RCW2001
News stories from around the nation identifying gun control as a trip-wire issue dividing conservatives and liberals don't surprise. The events of September 11 have heightened the resolution of the "individual rights" interpreters of the Second Amendment. These are distinguished from the "collective rights" faction. The former stare the language in the face and come away with a reading different from the collective crowd. At issue is the interpretation of a single sentence: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Opponents of comprehensive gun-control laws view this as a constitutional guarantee of the right of Americans to own guns. An easy to way to put it is that they view the amendment as if the initial clause were irrelevant, leaving us simply with a guarantee against federal gun control that challenges the right of citizens to own weapons. By contrast, of course, there are those (roughly speaking, the nation's intelligentsia) who insist that the Second Amendment goes no further than to say that Congress may not legislate against the right of individual states to organize militias of arms-bearing citizens.
The learned arguments go on and on. The gun-control lobby has suffered two severe blows in the recent period. One of them is that Professor Laurence Tribe of Harvard, much esteemed by American liberals, in part because of his enthusiasm for abortion rights, having examined the historical documents, opines that indeed the people who framed the Bill of Rights intended to guarantee individual, not merely collective, gun-ownership rights. And the Fifth Circuit ruled in the same direction in United States v. Emerson.
As with other contentions requiring constitutional interpretation, the division over gun control is only one part historical (What did the framers intend?). Another, more significant part, is political (What does the American public want?) But it's better, and safer, to ask the question: What do the American people reasonably want? It probably could be established by polling that the American people would be happy to hang anybody who burns the U.S. flag, but such sentiments are not likely to be codified.
It's more fruitful to argue reasonable limitations on gun ownership. A comic routine in Las Vegas in 1980 featured a debate between presidential contenders Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter on the matter of gun control, Walter Cronkite presiding. "What about atom bombs, Governor Reagan? Do you believe the Constitution guarantees the right of individuals to have atom bombs?"
"Well, Mr. Cronkite," the comedian answered pensively, "just small atom bombs."
The assertion of a right at ridiculous lengths — the absolutization of it, in the manner of the American Civil Liberties Union — is a way of undermining it. If the Constitution says you can say anything you want under any circumstances, then you can shout fire! in a crowded movie theater. If you have the right to remain silent in all circumstance, then you can decline to give testimony vital to another citizen's freedom and rights. If you insist that a citizen has the right to own a machine gun, you discredit his right to own a pistol or a rifle.
What ripened in the aftermath of September 11 was a sensibility — of the individual citizen's dependence, at the margin, on his own resources. George Will put it pithily (as ever), when he asked, Call for a cop, an ambulance, and a pizza, and ask which is likelier to get to you first. A rifle in the closet wouldn't have been useful against the swooping 767s that struck the Twin Towers. But a sense of the implications of chaos and anarchy was sharpened. An analyst 20 years ago remarked that an 82-year-old couple living in an apartment in the Bronx, after twice being assaulted, found it possible to sleep at night only after acquiring a pistol and advertising its presence on a note pinned to the outside door.
Both sides will find it useful to temper extreme expressions of their positions. But it is certainly true that at this moment it is likelier that congressmen running for election or reelection in November will not press the collective interpretation of the Second Amendment.
It sounds like you have not read the statements from the State Police of Illinois. Police do not go around shooting Il citizens because you say they will.
Second, A number of Blue dog Democrats and Northern Republican State Senators, and Representatives would diagree with you. That is why they voted for and passed the Safe Neighborhood Act. The law enacted in May of 2000 says how to carry an unloaded firearm in your possession and be legal. Notice I said unloaded. Should you get some rational and logical thoughts you will learn that you can carry a cased firearm (unloaded) in your vehicle unless you are a felon. A number of us worked with Senators and Representatives on this one.
Here is the link for your study and book report.
Regarding your over all statements some emotional, some factual.
Any LEO that finds you with a weapon loaded or not will treat you as an armed criminal, meaning you are likely to be shot.
I guess that the woman in southern Illinois is now dead, I supose the man from DuPage county is now dead.
I guess you have not read the Safe Neighborhood Act Either.
State of Illinois legislative ACT
http://www.legis.state.il.us/publicacts/pubact91/acts/91-0690.html
Firearm owners do not want hotheads.
I have looked at your articles, you have done some nice work. We would like you to join the effort to take Illinois to the next step.
George Washington said id best.
THE FOUNDATION "Put none but Americans on guard tonight." --George Washington
Semper Fi.
yep that a$$ Dan Divine of Cook county wants you to think that way.
The DA in Dupage tried it and he got his A$$ kicked.
The Blue Dog Democrats of the southern half of Illionis passed this law not the republicans.
It takes time to educate. If you want to stand on the sideline until the education is complete, we will proceed forward. When you think it is safe again join us. Several groups in Illinois are educating the Sheriff departments and the local police. Numberous western suburb chief of polices have issued bulletins to their officers.
Speaking with numberous LEO's in Illinois they generally support CCW for Illinios.
For my twin's 21st birthday we went to Vegas, while there my son(daughter didn't want to go) we went to "The Gun Store" and rented an MP5 and a Thompson. What a hoot! Still have the targets, only thing killed was paper!
It was Columbine that caused the gun-grab movement to collapse in the first place! The Hillary crowd saw Columbine as their "big chance" to make their move, and really start banning guns in huge numbers. This woke up all the gun owners, and caused the massive pro-2nd-Amendment movement we've got today.
There have been other school shootings since Columbine. They were forgotten within a few days.
I'm not so sure about that, bro. I know for a fact that a shall-issue concealed carry bill was cruising toward passage in Colorado right up to the shooting in Littleton, and was derailed by the shooting. Other shootings since have faded from the spotlight quickly because they didn't have the same shock effect (body count) as Columbine, or as in the case of the Virginia law school, were stopped by armed citizens defending themselves and their fellow students (can't go mentioning that on the national news, now can we?). I also believe Michigan and Ohio had pending CCW bills at the time which were held up after Columbine, but I may be wrong there.
I hope you're right, but I'm not counting on it. They will change tactics, like taxing or "controlling" what kinds of ammo we can own, and closing shooting ranges, but they'll never stop trying to get our means of protecting and defending ourselves.
After all, have the global Socialists and Commies given up their ways in the wake of the so-called collapse of the Soviet Union? Not by a long shot. The likes of Bubba and Hitlery (to name a few) still believe Communism can work, "it just hasn't been tried the right way". They'll keep on trying, because nimrods like that believe in Communism...the same goes for their useful idiots in the anti-RKBA crowd. I recall someone once said something about eternal vigilance...the best way to ensure the return of the anti-gunners is to assume they're beaten.
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
Don't believe it for a second, and don't let articles like this lull you into a false sense of security. The statist agenda is still in full effect.
Under the guise of "analyzing" an "issue" the author introduces a bucketload of fallacies that subtly undermine the very premise he presumably defends.
One example:-free speech does not extend to the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre and thereby harm the general public.
True enough in the abstract,BUT two important codecils are never mentioned.
1. Society does not exercise "prior restraint"(guilty until proven innocent) by gagging everyone going into a theatre in order to prevent them from shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. We only declare that such an act is illegal and subject to prosecution and punishment.
2.Society further recognizes shouting fire is illegal only in cases where no fire is underway. It is perfectly acceptable to alert patrons to a dangerous condition by any necessary means in order to save their lives. No specification is made as to how that should be accomplished.
In such circumstances it becomes clear prior restraint(gagging everyone) in order to eliminate one of several potentially bad outcomes generates the possibility of an even worse outcome should a fire actually threaten a theatre audience.
Best regards,
No more gun laws? Did we suddenly wake up this morning and Schumer, Boxer, Kennedy, Feinstein, and clinton suddenly lose their jobs? Is the assault weapons bill going to sunset in 2004? Yeah, sure, everyone go back to sleep now, everythings going to be all right. < sarcasm >
Jim Camarrano of the San Diego NRA Members Council (now called something else) refers to these people the "freedom freeloaders". He's dead-on.
FWIW, I give more money to pro-gun groups than I actually spend on firearms, targets, ammunition, range fees, etc. If one-tenth of the gun-owning public did half as much, our problems would be vanquished.
Here's what's happening. We could never go on the offensive because we never had the votes in local, state or the federal level. Now that we have the votes to stop any legislation, the newspapers and this article are acting like the war is over. Wrong. We still need the votes to go on the offensive which means that we need more people to join the pro-gun groups, not less. Now is the time we need everyone involved and that means the lazy, excuse making, sit-on-the-sidelines-do-nothings that have been riding on our backs all this time.
THERE IS ALWAYS MORE EXCUSES TO DO NOTHING, THAN TO DO SOMETHING.
Really unfortunate; people should raid the group, take over, kick the creep on the top out, and run it like a legitimate pro-2a organization!!!
I have met with the head of CC, not impressed at all. IMHO he will get some fool killed with his method of getting CC in Illinois. With all the trigger happy thugs cops in Chicago, his "fanny pack carry" is asking for getting shot.
Most informed IL firearm owners who know whats going on in Illinois would agree with you to kick the crap out of the ISRA and put some real leadership into the IL effort for self defense.
Lets figure out a way to combine this splinter ILLINOIS energy in IL and build a MCRGO here in IL where we really need it. Being a Michigander myself CCW when in Michigan and Indiana, and IL transport when in Illinois. I would bet that OH and MI would be willing to support a real effort with software shells etc, if we could lite that fire.
Since John is not a member of FREEPR ask that this be posted for your review.
I've read some of the commentary on CC, INC. and wanted to respond personally to address some of the concerns expressed:
1. Our fund raising model is based on AMWAY, not a Ponzi scheme. We make no apologies for that and we have openly stated that from the beginning. In fact that is the attraction of our dues system.
2. The newsletter may give way to righteous rant from time to time. The alternative is to get your gun news from the I$RA Illinois Shooter. Of course you will wait months and months between issues, but you won't have to read my rants. To subscribe to CC NEWS send email to john@concealcarry.org Subject: subscribe
3. I do wonder why in the years before we had dues and I paid for everything out of my own pocket no one seemed to care about money? Now that we have a TOTALLY voluntary dues system in place suddenly money is an issue? I don't get it. Well, I guess that charge for $400 on my credit card to be a life member of the I$RA was just a bad dream? If dues are bad then let the I$RA set the example and elminate dues as we have. Yes, CC, INC. dues are VOLUNTARY - see paragraph 6 below. Dues paying members do get free gun transfers and guns at COST via our FFL, other than that there is no real difference between a dues paying member and someone who just wants to lend support.
4. Our web site may be lame, but it does contain a lot of info on Illinois Gun Law. Readers should look at www.concealcarry.org and the Champaign County Rifle Association web site at http://www.gunssavelife.com/ and then compare to the I$RA at www.isra.org. Lme or not, I'll put our web site up against the I$RA any day.
5. Yes, we consider selling AMSOIL to be a good way to raise money. If you are looking for some excellent lubricants for car, motorcycle, guns etc. please check out www.concealcarry.org/amsoil.htm
6. Non-dues payers still get CC NEWS free and if they get arrested on some technical gun charge they have a choice. They can call the I$RA at (815) 635-3198 or Concealed Carry, Inc at (630) 660-3935. Takes your pick at your own peril.
7. Feel free to email me with complaints or kudos at: john@concealcarry.org or call (630) 660-3935. I am used to anonymous diatribes against our efforts by cowards so feel free to pile on.
John Birch President Concealed Carry, Inc. PO BOX 4597 OAK BROOK IL 60522-4597 Tel: 630 660-3935 Fax: 815 327-1152 Web: www.concealcarry.org MOLON LABE - COME AND GET THEM
Sure, this dingleberry wants the gun-banners to "temper their extreme positions" - they're losing!
And he wants gunowners to pipe down, because we're winning the debate!
So what we have here is, Mr. Birch admits his is a .40 caliber version of Amway. Quaint, but not a draw for me. I avoid Amway for a reason, and unfortunately it appears I may be avoiding ConcealCarry.org for the same reason.
2. The newsletter may give way to righteous rant from time to time. The alternative is to get your gun news from the I$RA Illinois Shooter. Of course you will wait months and months between issues, but you won't have to read my rants. To subscribe to CC NEWS send email to john@concealcarry.org Subject: subscribe
I am new to the state. The few ISRA newspapers I saw that were acrimonious and divisive turned me off, and the Birch diatribe against ISRA also turned me off. I am a former officeholder in New York State's SCOPE (Shooters Committee on Political Education) and -- although we had our infighting -- we were very careful to keep it below the radar, and present a united front to the public and to our membership, and careful not to publicly criticize other like-minded pro-gun groups. I advise Mr. Birch and ISRA to follow this model, because the average person sees this and says "These people are a mess" and walks away.I nearly did myself, and I am a pro-gun activist.
3. I do wonder why in the years before we had dues and I paid for everything out of my own pocket no one seemed to care about money? Now that we have a TOTALLY voluntary dues system in place suddenly money is an issue? I don't get it. Well, I guess that charge for $400 on my credit card to be a life member of the I$RA was just a bad dream? If dues are bad then let the I$RA set the example and elminate dues as we have. Yes, CC, INC. dues are VOLUNTARY - see paragraph 6 below. Dues paying members do get free gun transfers and guns at COST via our FFL, other than that there is no real difference between a dues paying member and someone who just wants to lend support.
Mr. Birch is clearly very miffed he put out a lot of money for his cause. While I am sorry he feels this way, he should understand that a lot of us weren't even in the state when he did so, and we also have put a lot of money into the cause as well. My fiance has donated literally thousands of hours to the Second Amendment Sisters, and charged off (not asked for reimbursement) for many thousands of dollars of expenses.4. Our web site may be lame, but it does contain a lot of info on Illinois Gun Law. Readers should look at www.concealcarry.org and the Champaign County Rifle Association web site at http://www.gunssavelife.com/ and then compare to the I$RA at www.isra.org. Lme or not, I'll put our web site up against the I$RA any day.And he is mistaken: I actually am looking for a CCW-group to donate to and become a member of. I am looking for the opportunity to advance the ball down the CCW field, and I am perfectly aware this will require dues-paying members of an organized group to do so.
This is actually a complaint I do not have. It is a normal and relatively informative website.
5. Yes, we consider selling AMSOIL to be a good way to raise money. If you are looking for some excellent lubricants for car, motorcycle, guns etc. please check out www.concealcarry.org/amsoil.htm
Note to Mr. Birch -- it is just this sort of thing that smacks of tackiness and opportunism. People do not come to your web site looking for motor oil. People come to your web site looking to establish a CCW system in Illinois. At least, that is why I came.
6. Non-dues payers still get CC NEWS free and if they get arrested on some technical gun charge they have a choice. They can call the I$RA at (815) 635-3198 or Concealed Carry, Inc at (630) 660-3935. Takes your pick at your own peril.
Mr. Birch implies that ConcealCarry will legally protect you, should you be arrested for concealed carry in Chicago. Is this something that is in a legally-binding written document, or is this just a floated 'promise'?Furthermore, while -- if there is some guarantee of legal protection -- this might justify a larger dues, I am not looking for that. I am looking for a group dedicated to lobbying, advertising, and educating the public on the establishment of an Illinois CCW. It does not appear this is the focus of ConcealCarry.org.
I do not offer any of these thoughts in an effort to be a jerk or to tear down or any of that. I am hopeful Messr. Birch will look at these thoughts and criticisms with an open mind, and that maybe there might be a way he might incorporate some of these ideas into his vision. My only goal is a CCW in Illinois, and I hope that is Mr. Birch's only goal as well.
BTW: A bit of unsolicited advice to Mr. Birch: Maintenance of professionalism even in the face of adversity is the hallmark of a superior leader.
There were four or five state groups in Michigan for awhile. I'm not counting one of the "NRA" groups(Michigan pistol associaiton or something like that since it's a shooting club and that's it). I won't count the militia either. All but three folded. One is Brass Roots, which it an offshoot of the libertarian party. I don't like Brass Roots. All they do is complain, whine, and they don't fight smart. They turned off any fencesitter leaning their way. They wanted Vermont or nothing, and the legislature told them to pound sand. They had 10,000 in 94. Now, they can barely fill a room with meetings.
The other is TN-USA. It's a national group, but is strong in Michigan for obvious reasons.(Nuge is from Concord). It's a good group, and they help us on gun issues, although hunting is their fortay. They are better on the education issues than the political, although they are capable of both.
Lastly is MCRGO, which I'm with. We started with 8 people, and now have I believe 28,000. No one is questioning our results. Some hate us because they think we compromised too much on the CCW bill(it was a take it or leave it by Engler - we took it, which is the right decision, especially with the good chance of Granholm as gov and now want to improve it). Right now, we are going for the legal end of the fight by taking Ferndale to Court for banning CCW in certain areas violating the 1990 pre-emption act.(Which I think is a must in any state) We're also looking for a veto-proof majority in the legislature, a new US Senator, Justice Robert Young to go back to the Supreme Court, and for some congressional pickups. I'll come back to this.
3. Now that we have a TOTALLY voluntary dues system in place suddenly money is an issue?
If dues are voluntary, I don't have as much of an issue, but dues are voluntary for any org. No one has to be a member to enjoy the benefits of being a gun owner. For being an MCRGO member, you help fund our group, sue places, get a great newsletter, and elect pro-2a officials. In fact, all our meetings outside the annual one are public and open even to a Million Moronic idiot.
Yes, CC, INC. dues are VOLUNTARY - see paragraph 6 below. Dues paying members do get free gun transfers and guns at COST via our FFL, other than that there is no real difference between a dues paying member and someone who just wants to lend support.
There is one good advantage there.
I don't know ISRA. I looked at their site, and they seem more like a shooter's club than a gun rights group. Their PAC page is only on the links section at the end and is hard to find. The last update I saw there was in January. There is NO information on the 22 faces you need to know there. NONE. That is WEAK, and I'd expect better fron an NRA affiliate. Their layout isn't bad at all. The content sucks.
I don't think so. These idiots created a paying job for themselves and have a vested interest in seeing the anti-gun agenda continued. What they may do is switch their anti effort into the NFA/GCA repeal arena.
I mean, who needs a machine gun? Or a "sniper rifle". Right?
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