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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
I know this will appall you, but I don't really care about this argument, because it's irrelevant. That means it has no bearing on Constitutional questions, other than as a side note about how that Constitution allowed slavery to begin with.

Your ignorance is astounding. The Confederates seceded because they opposed a Constitution that permitted the abolition of white supremacy and their cherished institution. Here's how Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens put it when explaining why he thought the signers of the Declaration of Independence were wrong if they meant to include Negroes among `all men':

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery ... is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first in history of the world based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

Bringing it up is simply a means of covering your backside when logic and a clear reading of the document in question has sent you Unlimited Government Supporters scurrying for cover.

As a responsible libertarian, I'm hardly a supporter of "unlimited government", but you're not going to promote liberty by distorting history and demonizing the man who was largely responsible for the most libertarian provision in the U.S. Constitution (i.e. the 13th Amendment). If anyone in the Civil War era is responsible for promoting a big federal government it is the Confederates, who demonstrated quite adeptly how tyrannical state governments can be.

If you still think that Lincoln put America on the path of big central government, take a look at this revealing chart:

Real Per Capita Expenditures: 1800-1990 (In Constant 1990 Dollars)

Source.

Note how federal government outlays dropped drastically after the Civil War and stayed very low for many decades thereafter. The explosive growth of the federal government is a 20th Century phenomenon. It is obscenely preposterous to blame Abraham Lincoln for what happened 65 years after he was murdered by a Confederate sympathizer.

the Constitution places limits on what can be done to the citizens and in their name.

Not really. The Constitution is so ambiguous and contradictory that it can be used to support practically any agenda if the Supreme Court approves. What really places limits on tyranny is human will to resist it. It was not the Constitution that abolished slavery, it was the wiil of the Union soldiers to oppose the insidiuos slaveholder mentality of the Confederates.

You may be passionate about your Yankee heritage, but your ancestors trampled the U.S. Constitution, and doing so has led us to this point.

Yes, I'm sure that you'd much prefer that those damned Yankees had been as cowardly as the Confederates assumed they were and just looked the other way when the Confederates you glorify kept Negro men, women, and children underfoot with whips and chains.

... for only 15% of Southerners owned slaves...

Actually, about 1/3 of Southern families owned slaves, and the slaveholders conned most of the nonslaveholding Southerners into supporting the Confederacy by extolling the benefits to them of white supremacy and frightening them with the prospect of free black men raping or marrying their daughters.

All of your ancestors fought to partially free the Black slaves, but in doing so made slaves of us all!

Even with taxes eating up 50% of our incomes, that's a far cry from slavery, and blaming Civil War era people for what happened in the 20th and 21st Centuries is ridiculous. Moreover, were the 13th Amendment's prohibition of "involuntary servitude" to be literally enforced, there would be no taxation. You can't blame Abe Lincoln for the Supreme Court justices who refuse to follow the key Constitutional Amendments he pushed through. (As a matter of fact, Lincoln appointee Stephen J. Fields was arguably the most libertarian Supreme Court Justice of all time and was very instrumental in keeping tyranny at bay during his long court by citing the 13th and 14th Amendments).

You do the tree of liberty little service by hacking away at its healthier branches.

199 posted on 04/03/2002 2:41:13 PM PST by ravinson
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To: ravinson
Your ignorance is astounding. The Confederates seceded because they opposed a Constitution that permitted the abolition of white supremacy and their cherished institution. Here's how Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens put it when explaining why he thought the signers of the Declaration of Independence were wrong if they meant to include Negroes among `all men'

No, if you'll read the original essay, you'll note that this is a thread on the Constitutionality of secession. Tell you what, if you want (and since it might make it easier for you to comprehend, since you haven't had much luck so far) we can frame it as a discussion of whether it is right now constitutional for a State to secede. And before you work you brain up to the point of offering the "no, because the North won the 1861-1865 war", realize that argument is irrelavent, too. That is akin to saying anything is okay if you have a bigger gun.

How's that? Can you put aside your ad hominem attacks and emotion-based rhetoric, and show me where it says Texas cannot secede if I can convince the legislature to pass an article of secession? Point to the wording. And if you want to say that Texas was conquered, nullifying it's right to secede, then let's play your game and make it Maine.

Now to your other silly comment.

Actually, about 1/3 of Southern families owned slaves, and the slaveholders conned most of the nonslaveholding Southerners into supporting the Confederacy by extolling the benefits to them of white supremacy and frightening them with the prospect of free black men raping or marrying their daughters.

Actually, about 1/3 of Southern families owned slaves, and the slaveholders conned most of the nonslaveholding Southerners into supporting the Confederacy by extolling the benefits to them of white supremacy and frightening them with the prospect of free black men raping or marrying their daughters. You're absolutely right, ravinson. I mean, all the archive excerpts I've seen had the soldiers start off every letter home to mom with, "Dear Mom, we're holding Richmond, so Sis is still safe from having to be raped or married by a black man." NOT! But this is a nice attempt to spread utter bulls**t about the thoughts and honor of the Southern fighting man. It also ignores plenty of Northern racism. It is, however, gratifying to see that the money the Federal government spent on propaganda disguised as text books was money well-spent. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure there was plenty of racism, but it spread around pretty equitably. Again, in no way to germane to the constitutionality of secession.

LTS

220 posted on 04/03/2002 4:41:51 PM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon
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To: ravinson
Note how federal government outlays dropped drastically after the Civil War and stayed very low for many decades thereafter

Please. The early parts of an exponential growth curve always look fairly constant when plotted along with the latter parts. It's due to the fractal nature of the exponential curve, that is it looks the same at all time scales. Try plotting just say 1850-1900 and see if that doesn't look very similar, ignoring specific events liek the 1860s war, WW-I and most especially WW-II.

300 posted on 04/03/2002 10:34:07 PM PST by El Gato
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