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To: Aedammair
At what point did these men surrender?

The fact is, they didn't surrender. There is absolutely no proof here or anywhere else that these guys surrendered; in fact, their presence INSIDE the building is a pretty good indicator that they did not.

Some others came out early and surrendered, and they were taken off and are still very much alive. But these folks didn't come out. These are the hardcore loyalists.

Unless you come walking out of that building with your hands in the air, or otherwise demonstrate thet you are surrendering and are DISARMED, you have not surrendered. If you haven't surrendered, that leaves your opponents no choice but to kill you. No one is obligated to risk themselves to treat a terrorist with kid gloves if he still has a weapon in hand. If you are armed and not surrendering, they can and should blow you away the minute they come around the corner or bust into the room- no matter how close the quarters. In fact, in tight quarters you had better do it with extreme speed. As a terrorist friend of Arafat, your opportunity to surrender ended when the Israelis yelled at you from outside to drop your weapons and come out. The Israelis used their bullhorns to offer the chance. That's a fair sight more thasn the Palestinians ever give the kids they blow up.

It's just common sense. These guys weren't taken away in live in handcuffs and later found on the side of the road somewhere dead. They were inside a building which they had been shooting out of for hours. They were shooting when the Israelis entered, and fighting all the way.

These people send others to blow themselves up among civilians, with nails packed around their bombs to increase the damage, into areas where they know for a fact that no military armed personnel are present. Why on earth should anyone think they will simply surrender instead of trying to take as many Israelis with them as they can before they die?

Do you want to be the one to go into Arafat's building while they are shooting at you to see if you have time to ask them nicely to drop their weapons and come out before you catch a Palestinian bullet? Don't you think it would be a little more intelligent to go in there shooting?

You want to step over a live enemy to get past him and to your objective?

If you do you WILL get shot or knifed in the back.

My uncle tried that with a German. He got a bayonet run up the length of his leg because he should have plunged his own bayonet into the apparently dead man FIRST, or shot him, to make sure the man was as dead as he looked. He shouldn't have stepped over the guy because he had room to go around.

But if your opposition isn't surrendering, you have to kill them until the survivors do surrender. You might have to kill all of them, depending on their loyalty to their cause.

154 posted on 03/30/2002 7:12:53 PM PST by piasa
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To: piasa
I really enjoy your posts, piasa. I like the way you think and the way you pose your argument.
156 posted on 03/30/2002 7:17:46 PM PST by Inkie
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To: piasa
If you think this was a proper and good thing to do then so be it. I'm not sure it was.
161 posted on 03/30/2002 7:22:48 PM PST by Aedammair
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To: piasa
Exactly. However, many of the warrior impaired types don't quite understand that taking prisoners - especially in a MOUT raid - is a death sentence to you and your troops. If it's in the building, it DIES. It's damn difficult to take POWs when the first thing into a room is a hand grenade. (Which, BTW, is evident in that one photo on the left side by the floor - the shrapnel and carbon from the grenade.)

Two man team leader to his partner prior to entering a room: "OK, I'll shoot the lock, you kick the door, I'll throw the grenade, you enter first and low spraying right to left, I'll enter second spraying left to right." Basically, you are trying to double-tap the bloody stumps laying around in the room at this point. War sucks. They (the bleeding hearts) need to learn to deal with it.

162 posted on 03/30/2002 7:22:57 PM PST by 11B3
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